20 Mph limit? – A hypothetical question
Discussion
This may have been talked out before (if so please direct me to the link-I could not find it).
However recently in this area there have been a plethora of 20mph limits set up in residential areas, many are just one sign on the entrance to a whole area of roads. OK fine residential = kids = grannies = keep the speed down drive sensibly and 20mph was all you ever probably do anyway.
But…. If you do happen to miss the 20mph limit sign on the entrance to the area there are no repeater signs so knowing your highway code you could think it was legitimate to travel at 30mph? (lamp posts closely spaced + residential+ no repeater signs = 30mph).
(And to the clever clogs who will say you should have seen the sign when you entered the area – you may not have arrived in the area driving but just be driving out!)
Should we now travel at 20mph until we see signage indicating the speed limit?
This thought / question was prompted by a letter to the times from someone nicked in a 20mph zone.
However recently in this area there have been a plethora of 20mph limits set up in residential areas, many are just one sign on the entrance to a whole area of roads. OK fine residential = kids = grannies = keep the speed down drive sensibly and 20mph was all you ever probably do anyway.
But…. If you do happen to miss the 20mph limit sign on the entrance to the area there are no repeater signs so knowing your highway code you could think it was legitimate to travel at 30mph? (lamp posts closely spaced + residential+ no repeater signs = 30mph).
(And to the clever clogs who will say you should have seen the sign when you entered the area – you may not have arrived in the area driving but just be driving out!)
Should we now travel at 20mph until we see signage indicating the speed limit?
This thought / question was prompted by a letter to the times from someone nicked in a 20mph zone.
JohnL said:
There's something to the effect that there should be traffic calming measures in a 20 zone, which take the place of repeater signs. I think - not sure of the deatils.
But there are humps, bumps,wiggles and chicanes on may 30 mph roads too?
I'm still stuck at 20mph until I see otherwise?
Ok so its plagiarism, but it saves hours of research:
Speed Limits - 20 mph
Recent legislation enables the introduction of 20mph speed limits without reference to the Department Transport, Local Government and the Regions (DLTR).
20 mph speed limits may now be introduced in urban areas only by either:
The introduction of a 20mph traffic calmed zone, or
The introduction of a signed 20mph restriction
20mph zones
Must have in place a significant number of speed reducing features which are able to reduce the speed of most traffic to 20mph or less.
A Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) is required to give effect to the zone.
Although signed on entry, repeater signs must not be used within the zone, as the limit should be self-enforcing. Therefore, Police enforcement will not be required.
Due to the high implementation costs associated with the significant levels of traffic calming features required, priority will only be given to those sites where significant numbers of injury accidents are occurring. This will inevitably restrict the number of zones but will ensure the effectiveness of those schemes introduced.
20mph Limits
Where traffic speeds are already restricted by natural constraints i.e. the layout and alignment of the road, and where average speeds of 24 mph or less are recorded.
Repeater signs must be used so as to prevent confusion with 30mph speed limits imposed by virtue of street lighting.
As with 20mph zones a TRO is required to give effect to the limit and to enable police enforcement to take place.
Confirms my initial understanding.
DVD
Speed Limits - 20 mph
Recent legislation enables the introduction of 20mph speed limits without reference to the Department Transport, Local Government and the Regions (DLTR).
20 mph speed limits may now be introduced in urban areas only by either:
The introduction of a 20mph traffic calmed zone, or
The introduction of a signed 20mph restriction
20mph zones
Must have in place a significant number of speed reducing features which are able to reduce the speed of most traffic to 20mph or less.
A Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) is required to give effect to the zone.
Although signed on entry, repeater signs must not be used within the zone, as the limit should be self-enforcing. Therefore, Police enforcement will not be required.
Due to the high implementation costs associated with the significant levels of traffic calming features required, priority will only be given to those sites where significant numbers of injury accidents are occurring. This will inevitably restrict the number of zones but will ensure the effectiveness of those schemes introduced.
20mph Limits
Where traffic speeds are already restricted by natural constraints i.e. the layout and alignment of the road, and where average speeds of 24 mph or less are recorded.
Repeater signs must be used so as to prevent confusion with 30mph speed limits imposed by virtue of street lighting.
As with 20mph zones a TRO is required to give effect to the limit and to enable police enforcement to take place.
Confirms my initial understanding.
DVD
Dwight VanDriver said:
Although signed on entry, repeater signs must not be used within the zone, as the limit should be self-enforcing. Therefore, Police enforcement will not be required.
priority will only be given to those sites where significant numbers of injury accidents are occurring. This will inevitably restrict the number of zones but will ensure the effectiveness of those schemes introduced.
DVD
So it looks like some authorities / partnerships are taking this piece of legislation and using its weak wording to do what they like. (Was the weak wording intentional?)
There cannot have been 'significant injury accidents' in these area as there are just too many.
Police enforcing not required – (but its ok as its optional) and limits are being enforced. So again we have practice at odds with procedure.
Also the fact that we now have two systems of 20mph signage is yet more confusing, if you don’t have the repeater signs you expect it does not mean it’s a 30 limit.
Still all a bit hypothetical for me – you will understand once you hit a speed bump at more than 10mph in an Elise.
Dwight VanDriver said:
20mph Limits
Where traffic speeds are already restricted by natural constraints i.e. the layout and alignment of the road, and where average speeds of 24 mph or less are recorded.
Presumably this is from some DfT 'guidance'?
AIUI, there is nothing to prevent a council issuing a 20MPH limit order on a road with an average speed higher than 24MPH and if they do, that is not a defence.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Tuesday 6th July 01:12
Surely, if the road has traffic calming that keeps the vehicle speeds to below 20mph (whether or not that's a good idea is a different argument), it's completely pointless to put an enforceable speed limit on it, which then doesn't need to be policed.
So doing so serves only to create more bureaucracy, excess road furniture, and other irrelevancies that cost money and time but achieve f**k all.
Not the worst outcome on the world but still irritating. Not to mention symptomatic of the control freak ... no, I won't start
So doing so serves only to create more bureaucracy, excess road furniture, and other irrelevancies that cost money and time but achieve f**k all.
Not the worst outcome on the world but still irritating. Not to mention symptomatic of the control freak ... no, I won't start
Agree all this is maddening. Councils seem to be making up their own signs. I don't know why they have the signs at the beginning and end of 20 zones that show the 30 or 20 limit crossed out and in grey. Surely it's obvious and irrelevant what the previous speed limit is. (Another is the red circle order signs that say "40mph 200m". These should mean that's the limit and all these do is confuse.)
Slight change of subject but one of my constant rants: don't councils have a duty to allow traffic to proceed at up to the speed limit. Where speed bumps are installed in 30 zones this usually becomes impossible. As has been touched on above, if their intention is to enforce a lower speed, they should apply for a reduced limit. Otherwise I am sure they must be failing in their duties.
Overall I support 20 zones in residential areas, arround schools etc. but they should be part of a wider review of speed limits that results in some give and take.
Slight change of subject but one of my constant rants: don't councils have a duty to allow traffic to proceed at up to the speed limit. Where speed bumps are installed in 30 zones this usually becomes impossible. As has been touched on above, if their intention is to enforce a lower speed, they should apply for a reduced limit. Otherwise I am sure they must be failing in their duties.
Overall I support 20 zones in residential areas, arround schools etc. but they should be part of a wider review of speed limits that results in some give and take.
jeffreyarcher said:
20mph Limits
Where traffic speeds are already restricted by natural constraints i.e. the layout and alignment of the road, and where average speeds of 24 mph or less are recorded.
Presumably this is from some DfT 'guidance'?
AIUI, there is nothing to prevent a council issuing a 20MPH limit order on a road with an average speed higher than 24MPH and if they do, that is not a defence.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Tuesday 6th July 01:12
JA
If you do a search on Circular Roads 5/99 should bring up official guide lines. Originally under CR 4/90
Point of note they refer to the old TSGD 1994 now 2002.
DVD
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