Right to defend your own property......how far?
Discussion
There have been some recent cases in the news of people defending their property ( home ) against burglers.
As I recall, one was an old boy who shot a young lad for entering his home, and the other was a another old boy ( I think ) who rigged an outhouse door with a weapon of some kind ( seem to recall it was a shotgun )
How far can one legally go to defend their home against burglers and crims?
What is the law on this because I've wondered for a long time.
As I recall, one was an old boy who shot a young lad for entering his home, and the other was a another old boy ( I think ) who rigged an outhouse door with a weapon of some kind ( seem to recall it was a shotgun )
How far can one legally go to defend their home against burglers and crims?
What is the law on this because I've wondered for a long time.
Knew a guy on South Africa with a farm, where he did not actually live but farmed the land.
Because of the regular break-ins to the farmhouse, he put venomous snakes in the house, which he'd found on the land.
Pretty good deterrent really and difficult to prove that he'd put them in there.
Because of the regular break-ins to the farmhouse, he put venomous snakes in the house, which he'd found on the land.
Pretty good deterrent really and difficult to prove that he'd put them in there.
Article 2(2) European Convention of Human Rights does not permit the taking of life in order to protect property,
Under Criminal Law Act 1967 a person may USE SUCH FORCE AS IS REASONABLE IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES in the prevention of crime or in effectoing or assisting the arrest of an offender or suspected offender.
There is a plethora of cases on this matter and one, Beckford v The Queen 1988, a defendant if charged must believe the degree of force used is reasonable in the circumstances as he honestly believed them to be. So if a defendant believed they were being attacked or facing a lethal threat, they may use a degree of force which would be reasoanble if that were actually the case
So it will be a question of fact. The law seems to go out of the way to protect the Villain
DVD
Under Criminal Law Act 1967 a person may USE SUCH FORCE AS IS REASONABLE IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES in the prevention of crime or in effectoing or assisting the arrest of an offender or suspected offender.
There is a plethora of cases on this matter and one, Beckford v The Queen 1988, a defendant if charged must believe the degree of force used is reasonable in the circumstances as he honestly believed them to be. So if a defendant believed they were being attacked or facing a lethal threat, they may use a degree of force which would be reasoanble if that were actually the case
So it will be a question of fact. The law seems to go out of the way to protect the Villain
DVD
Yet again DVD comes up trumps with the facts. But from what I understand from solictors etc, you have to be VERY careful and consider the "reasonable force" aspect of it.
So, for example, if you had a burglar attack you in your own home with a knife, pulling out a gun is EXCESSIVE. While if he had no weapon, pulling a knife is EXCESSIVE also.... threatening is one thing, but ABH as a result would actually find you up in front of a judge.
But if a burglar did attack you with a knife and you retaliated (note RETALIATED, not attacked first!) with a knife, and said burglar was to be seriously hurt or even die - well you responded with reasonable force and in genuine fear for your life. At which point it is perfectly acceptible to respond appropriately.....
Unfortunately we only hear of the extreme cases such as chappy farmer in Norfolk. But as usual the press tend to blur the facts in order to create a story. In the case of the farmer (cant remember his name sorry), he shot the burglar IN THE BACK as he was escaping EMPTY HANDED.... the farmer was hardly at risk of his own life or injury!!!! So, pretty clear that its manslaughter rather than reasonable force to defend his life or property.....
So, for example, if you had a burglar attack you in your own home with a knife, pulling out a gun is EXCESSIVE. While if he had no weapon, pulling a knife is EXCESSIVE also.... threatening is one thing, but ABH as a result would actually find you up in front of a judge.
But if a burglar did attack you with a knife and you retaliated (note RETALIATED, not attacked first!) with a knife, and said burglar was to be seriously hurt or even die - well you responded with reasonable force and in genuine fear for your life. At which point it is perfectly acceptible to respond appropriately.....
Unfortunately we only hear of the extreme cases such as chappy farmer in Norfolk. But as usual the press tend to blur the facts in order to create a story. In the case of the farmer (cant remember his name sorry), he shot the burglar IN THE BACK as he was escaping EMPTY HANDED.... the farmer was hardly at risk of his own life or injury!!!! So, pretty clear that its manslaughter rather than reasonable force to defend his life or property.....
Have you been out where Tony Martin lived? Very dark, very desolate and very scary. I would shoot anything that moved if I lived out there.
In the cold light of day in a court room, things could seem very different to 3AM on a dark and cold winters night when you don't know how many people are on your land.
The law should be simplified so that intruders could lawfully be killed. I bet break-ins would cease almost overnight!!
In the cold light of day in a court room, things could seem very different to 3AM on a dark and cold winters night when you don't know how many people are on your land.
The law should be simplified so that intruders could lawfully be killed. I bet break-ins would cease almost overnight!!
pbrettle said:
So, pretty clear that its manslaughter rather than reasonable force to defend his life or property.....
Pretty clear that the letter of the law has been used to rape the intent of the law.
This has been done 'to death' before. But I will always believe my home is my castle, and if you want to violate my home / invade the sanctity of my families house, you better be prepared to pay the consequences!
BliarOut said:
The law should be simplified so that intruders could lawfully be killed. I bet break-ins would cease almost overnight!!
isnt there a 'home owners association' in some part of Texas, where they have a 'pool'.
Each home pays in a few K, which is given to the first Homeowner to successfully KILL a burglar on their premises.
I am sure I heard there was a 0% burglary rate in this area.
I wonder why!
Make it difficult a difficult target.
Burglar Alarm. Good doors and windows with locks. Security lighting on the outside. Lighting with timers on the inside to give the appearance of being occupied when it's not. Buy a big dog (failing that, have a dog sign up anyway)...
If you do hear something in the middle of the night, make lots of noise, turn on lights, press panic push alarm etc etc. much better for the villain to flee than to risk a confrontation which might get nasty. (Difficult thing to do when one is angry and one feels the need to confront and capture the villain)...
Street
Burglar Alarm. Good doors and windows with locks. Security lighting on the outside. Lighting with timers on the inside to give the appearance of being occupied when it's not. Buy a big dog (failing that, have a dog sign up anyway)...
If you do hear something in the middle of the night, make lots of noise, turn on lights, press panic push alarm etc etc. much better for the villain to flee than to risk a confrontation which might get nasty. (Difficult thing to do when one is angry and one feels the need to confront and capture the villain)...
Street
I have been wondering about this too,
I live out in the sticks, with no other houses within 1 mile.
There is very little help that could come to me.
I have a woodburning stove and fire, so if forced to defend myself I would be using an axe, as I have a few around the house, its the only thing I have that would serve as a weapon.
What is reasonable ? I totally agree with turning on lights and shouting at him to get out , but what if it does not work ?
What if he starts coming towards me in threataning manner ? can I hit him yet ? Do I threaten him with a weapon ?
How could I prove anything afterwards, there are no neigbours so no witnesses ?
Should I buy a baseball bat instead so to be less likey to kill them ?
I live out in the sticks, with no other houses within 1 mile.
There is very little help that could come to me.
I have a woodburning stove and fire, so if forced to defend myself I would be using an axe, as I have a few around the house, its the only thing I have that would serve as a weapon.
What is reasonable ? I totally agree with turning on lights and shouting at him to get out , but what if it does not work ?
What if he starts coming towards me in threataning manner ? can I hit him yet ? Do I threaten him with a weapon ?
How could I prove anything afterwards, there are no neigbours so no witnesses ?
Should I buy a baseball bat instead so to be less likey to kill them ?
To answer your question, Yes.
If you feel you are going to be assaulted you can issue a pre-emptive blow. It's very unusual to have to go to such lengths in ones home as the burlgar will usually do anything to prevent you seeing him...
I can't recommend enough the value of a properly trained dog.
Have a look at:
www.a1k9.co.uk
www.policedogsrus.co.uk
for two such companies..
Street
If you feel you are going to be assaulted you can issue a pre-emptive blow. It's very unusual to have to go to such lengths in ones home as the burlgar will usually do anything to prevent you seeing him...
I can't recommend enough the value of a properly trained dog.
Have a look at:
www.a1k9.co.uk
www.policedogsrus.co.uk
for two such companies..
Street
Thinking along the same lines recently.
I'm planning on building a garage which will have two entrances.
One will likely be an up and over door which two removable metal posts in the ground just outside to prevent the door opening when I don't want it to, as well as 4 bolts on the inside and a 4 point locking system (rather than the usual 2).
The other will be a uPVC door with more mortice deadlocks in it than you can shake a stick at.
There will also be 2 Double Glazed uPVC window units but these will have metal grills over them to prevent them being smashed.
I plan on fitting a alarm which, when triggered rings in the house rather than the garage. Now, hypothetically speaking, if I was alerted to some chavscum in my garage trying to get at the car or bike in it (probably a V8S and a Honda CBR), I went out and locked them in it, and then phoned PC I-can't-be-bothered-to-get-up-off-my-donuteating-coffeedrinking-playboychannelwatching-fat-arse-and-catch-some-criminals, and left them there until plod arrived, Would the scum have any come back on me??
NB, the description of the policeman is the local one to me and is not meant to cause any offence, distress or harm to any PH BiB.
No Chavscum were harmed in the writing of this post
I'm planning on building a garage which will have two entrances.
One will likely be an up and over door which two removable metal posts in the ground just outside to prevent the door opening when I don't want it to, as well as 4 bolts on the inside and a 4 point locking system (rather than the usual 2).
The other will be a uPVC door with more mortice deadlocks in it than you can shake a stick at.
There will also be 2 Double Glazed uPVC window units but these will have metal grills over them to prevent them being smashed.
I plan on fitting a alarm which, when triggered rings in the house rather than the garage. Now, hypothetically speaking, if I was alerted to some chavscum in my garage trying to get at the car or bike in it (probably a V8S and a Honda CBR), I went out and locked them in it, and then phoned PC I-can't-be-bothered-to-get-up-off-my-donuteating-coffeedrinking-playboychannelwatching-fat-arse-and-catch-some-criminals, and left them there until plod arrived, Would the scum have any come back on me??
NB, the description of the policeman is the local one to me and is not meant to cause any offence, distress or harm to any PH BiB.
No Chavscum were harmed in the writing of this post
Fascinating.
I have found out recently that a pre-emptive strike is not accepted even if it was neccessary to save your life. This has cost me a lot of money. Even tho' I was in the right, it was deemed "excessive". Just goes to prove that the law is barmy.
I may write a new thread about this, but I am very disillusioned about the law right now. Those that think they can defend themselves in anyway are WRONG. The law is on the side of the person most injured, not the one who started the trouble. Be warned!
I have found out recently that a pre-emptive strike is not accepted even if it was neccessary to save your life. This has cost me a lot of money. Even tho' I was in the right, it was deemed "excessive". Just goes to prove that the law is barmy.
I may write a new thread about this, but I am very disillusioned about the law right now. Those that think they can defend themselves in anyway are WRONG. The law is on the side of the person most injured, not the one who started the trouble. Be warned!
Having Discovered Buglars in my house in the middle of the night (actually my wife heard them and kicked me in the leg till I woke up. I legged it down stairs - tho not before pulling a pair of Jeans on and unfortunatly or more likely fortunatly they had got away through the back garden) I know what an unpleasent experience it is. To the point that we were seriously considering moving due to no longer feeling safe in the house. Along with the PIR Light on the drive and locking - tho still sash - windows there is a 3 ft Machette (SP? - Bloody big knife thing) kept on my wife's side of the bed if I am away and somebody breaks in she instructed to yell from upstairs that she has a kinfe and if they come up feel free to hack at them to till they go away (in however many pieces) If I am there I would be more inclined to go down and wave said Knife at them and then sit on them till the BIB arrived - I am not letting another one get away.
I don't doubt for one second that it would get me in a significant amount of trouble however I think if someone breaks into my house they have crossed a Line where consequences would be thought about later.
and unfortunatly or more likely fortunatly they had got away through the back garden) I know what an unpleasent experience it is. To the point that we were seriously considering moving due to no longer feeling safe in the house. Along with the PIR Light on the drive and locking - tho still sash - windows there is a 3 ft Machette (SP? - Bloody big knife thing) kept on my wife's side of the bed if I am away and somebody breaks in she instructed to yell from upstairs that she has a kinfe and if they come up feel free to hack at them to till they go away (in however many pieces) If I am there I would be more inclined to go down and wave said Knife at them and then sit on them till the BIB arrived - I am not letting another one get away. I don't doubt for one second that it would get me in a significant amount of trouble however I think if someone breaks into my house they have crossed a Line where consequences would be thought about later.
I had two dogs, the soppy Golden Retriever who may inadvertantly lick somebody to death, and the guard dog, a very big German Shepherd (42kg, 72cm at the shoulder). Unfortunately I had to have the German Shepherd put to sleep in January, he was only 4 years old but was suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy on both sides of the brain.
During the end of last year he had attacked two other dogs for no apparent reason, one of which was a regular walking companion, so I took him to the vet. He had previously had Lyme Disease so I thought maybe there was a problem with this, however it was not that. I took him to a brain specialist and had him on a brain scanner where the problem became very apparent. He was suffering a minor epileptic fit every few minutes, only visible on the scans. These were sufficient to send him loopy in certain circumstances. Another couple of months and we would have been at risk ourselves, not good with a 3 year-old boy around so we had to take the decision, not good at all, we all still miss him.
So, no guard dog at present.
During the end of last year he had attacked two other dogs for no apparent reason, one of which was a regular walking companion, so I took him to the vet. He had previously had Lyme Disease so I thought maybe there was a problem with this, however it was not that. I took him to a brain specialist and had him on a brain scanner where the problem became very apparent. He was suffering a minor epileptic fit every few minutes, only visible on the scans. These were sufficient to send him loopy in certain circumstances. Another couple of months and we would have been at risk ourselves, not good with a 3 year-old boy around so we had to take the decision, not good at all, we all still miss him.
So, no guard dog at present.
WTF is reasonable force? Why can't there be some "definition" attached to these terms!?
If a kid breaks into my house, physically holding him/her back would be adequate but someone with a gun would require a good few punches and taking away the gun as "reasonable force".
Why can't this government ever do anything properly? Reasonable force is a loose term with little commonly accepted meaning and that meaning varies from person to person. It's just like calling a car "streetable" or "fast" when these terms are subjective to who says it and from person to person. Me driving an Impreza is fast, but for someone coming from an Enzo it won't really be.
If a kid breaks into my house, physically holding him/her back would be adequate but someone with a gun would require a good few punches and taking away the gun as "reasonable force".
Why can't this government ever do anything properly? Reasonable force is a loose term with little commonly accepted meaning and that meaning varies from person to person. It's just like calling a car "streetable" or "fast" when these terms are subjective to who says it and from person to person. Me driving an Impreza is fast, but for someone coming from an Enzo it won't really be.
JamieBeeston said:
isnt there a 'home owners association' in some part of Texas, where they have a 'pool'.
Each home pays in a few K, which is given to the first Homeowner to successfully KILL a burglar on their premises.
I am sure I heard there was a 0% burglary rate in this area.
I wonder why!
I have not heard of this, but even if it does not exist IMO its a dam good rumour to start!!
I think I might start mentioning that I have heard a rumour that such a plan is in place on my local patch, ie a "number" of residents worried about break ins have started a "pot" into which they pay a sum each month which goes to the first to dispatch a thieving scumbag in the act in their property.
Might discourage the odd scrote.
Cheers
Paul
Its all very well keeping a "weapon" available with the intention to twat potential intruders over the head with should you encounter them.
However, have you actually thought about if it would be possible to do so? Could you really hack at someone with a machete? I don't think so fella's, I know I probably wouldn't.
Usual reaction when something like that happens is a) adrenalin rush where you can't think you heart pounds like a steam hammer and you panic a bit and then b) frankly most ppl sh!t it.
What if there's 2 or more of them? What if they're bigger, quicker, harder than you? What if they're all tooled up? What if they get your weapon off you and use it against you?
I don't know what I'd do, but I sure as hell would not be planning on trying to hit someone with a weapon I'd stowed away for the job... you think any court in the land is going to let you walk from that one?
I'd say the advice given previously is the safest, make a lot of noise and hit 999. Hopefully they'll leg it and all you'll lose is a bit of kit which you'll hopefuly get back via insurance, and maybe a bit of an ego dent.
Big dog and decent home security seem to be the best weapons of choice, that and a hotline to a BiB station who are quick on their toes!
However, have you actually thought about if it would be possible to do so? Could you really hack at someone with a machete? I don't think so fella's, I know I probably wouldn't.
Usual reaction when something like that happens is a) adrenalin rush where you can't think you heart pounds like a steam hammer and you panic a bit and then b) frankly most ppl sh!t it.
What if there's 2 or more of them? What if they're bigger, quicker, harder than you? What if they're all tooled up? What if they get your weapon off you and use it against you?
I don't know what I'd do, but I sure as hell would not be planning on trying to hit someone with a weapon I'd stowed away for the job... you think any court in the land is going to let you walk from that one?
I'd say the advice given previously is the safest, make a lot of noise and hit 999. Hopefully they'll leg it and all you'll lose is a bit of kit which you'll hopefuly get back via insurance, and maybe a bit of an ego dent.
Big dog and decent home security seem to be the best weapons of choice, that and a hotline to a BiB station who are quick on their toes!
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