Unlicensed test drives.
Discussion
tony.t said:
If I was to allow a potential purchaser to test drive a car I was selling and it turns out he has no licence have I broken the law in allowing him to drive the car?
Dunno, but you`d be a bit silly not to check licence before he gets behind the wheel. If I sell a car its definately a case of No Licence & picture ID = NO DRIVE.
Steve
An offence is committed by any person who causes or permits another person to drive a mpv on a road without a Licence.
Section 87 RTA 88. &1,000 fine. Can be disqualified as the result of another enactment.
Prosecution have only to prove the granting of permission to drive and not that the owner was aware that the driver was unlicensed.(Ferrymaster v Adam 1975).
Foolhardy thing to do to allow another to drive as if they have never held a Licence or Disqualified then any Insurance for the vehicle is invalid.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 2nd August 07:35
Section 87 RTA 88. &1,000 fine. Can be disqualified as the result of another enactment.
Prosecution have only to prove the granting of permission to drive and not that the owner was aware that the driver was unlicensed.(Ferrymaster v Adam 1975).
Foolhardy thing to do to allow another to drive as if they have never held a Licence or Disqualified then any Insurance for the vehicle is invalid.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 2nd August 07:35
Aiding and abetting?
I got caught up in this previously, its quite interesting what happened.
I was 16 years old (a wee while ago now!) and I gave one of my friends (17 year old guy) a go on my 250cc motocrosser. I lived on a farm so we had plenty of space to play around.
He took the bike round the field once then decided to drive into another field which involved crossing a road.
The road in question was brand new and there was hardly any traffic on it, well about 1 car per day which was a road maintenance vehicle. Still it was a public highway as far as the law is concerned.
He crossed over the road and made it into the the other field, what he didn't see was the BiB hiding just round the corner. They waited on him coming back out the field as there was no other way out.
They all came back to my house where I was told they would be charging my friend with
* no helmet
* no tax
* no MOT
* no insurance
and they would be charging me with aiding and abetting
as it was my bike!!!
It went to court and thankfully they dropped the charges against me but my friend got
* 9 points
* 350 GBP fine
This happened on new years day too.
I didn't have too many dealings with the police when I was 16 but I lost a lot (all!) of my trust in them that day.
They were absolutely horrible and even rude to my Mother who was speaking to them.
Thankfully they are not all like that
I got caught up in this previously, its quite interesting what happened.
I was 16 years old (a wee while ago now!) and I gave one of my friends (17 year old guy) a go on my 250cc motocrosser. I lived on a farm so we had plenty of space to play around.
He took the bike round the field once then decided to drive into another field which involved crossing a road.
The road in question was brand new and there was hardly any traffic on it, well about 1 car per day which was a road maintenance vehicle. Still it was a public highway as far as the law is concerned.
He crossed over the road and made it into the the other field, what he didn't see was the BiB hiding just round the corner. They waited on him coming back out the field as there was no other way out.
They all came back to my house where I was told they would be charging my friend with
* no helmet
* no tax
* no MOT
* no insurance
and they would be charging me with aiding and abetting
as it was my bike!!! It went to court and thankfully they dropped the charges against me but my friend got
* 9 points
* 350 GBP fine
This happened on new years day too.
I didn't have too many dealings with the police when I was 16 but I lost a lot (all!) of my trust in them that day.
They were absolutely horrible and even rude to my Mother who was speaking to them.
Thankfully they are not all like that
Dwight VanDriver said:
Prosecution have only to prove the granting of permission to drive and not that the owner was aware that the driver was unlicensed.(Ferrymaster v Adam 1975).
Thanks for the reply.
Case was hypothetical but I have never asked to see driving licenses when selling cars and have never been asked for mine when test driving.
Would granting of permission having asked if the driver was licensed be enough or do we have to check the license is valid ( and since there is a similar offence for insurance do we have to check insurance certificates as well?)
In John v Humphries 1955 it was held that the onus of proof that a driver had a Licence rests with him.
I would take this that by production of a Licence is the only way to avoid a prosecution. Merely saying that a driver had one without it being seen may well be mitigation for the Mags to consider.
Because of the Insurance aspect it is a very unwise man that allows his vehicle to be driven without proof that the documentation is in order.
DVD
I would take this that by production of a Licence is the only way to avoid a prosecution. Merely saying that a driver had one without it being seen may well be mitigation for the Mags to consider.
Because of the Insurance aspect it is a very unwise man that allows his vehicle to be driven without proof that the documentation is in order.
DVD
Absolutely...
Dreadful case up north recently, where a Subaru salesman accompanied a potential buyer out on a test drive. Mr Customer, testing his 'thugs car' loses it and hits a tree...Salesman (front seat passenger) ends up on life support system...
The mentality of some people is beyond belief at times..
Street
Dreadful case up north recently, where a Subaru salesman accompanied a potential buyer out on a test drive. Mr Customer, testing his 'thugs car' loses it and hits a tree...Salesman (front seat passenger) ends up on life support system...
The mentality of some people is beyond belief at times..
Street
Dwight VanDriver said:
In John v Humphries 1955 it was held that the onus of proof that a driver had a Licence rests with him.
I would take this that by production of a Licence is the only way to avoid a prosecution. Merely saying that a driver had one without it being seen may well be mitigation for the Mags to consider.
Because of the Insurance aspect it is a very unwise man that allows his vehicle to be driven without proof that the documentation is in order.
DVD
Which all seems a bit unreasonable in that the BIB appear not to have to play by the same rules; Since if the BIB stop you and you don't have your documents with you they allow you to continue. If you subsequently are found to be unlicensed or your insurance is not valid the BIB are not prosecuted for "permitting" the use of a vehicle by an unlicensed/uninsured driver.
If someone shows me a driving license or insurance certificate I have no way of determining whether it is valid so it would be unreasonable to say I have permitted the use of the car if the documents turn out not to be valid. Surely this is no different from asking if they are insured/licensed and the repl being yes when the reality is they are unlicensed/uninsured?
The point about checking insurance is entirely sensible but how many of us ask the driver of vehicles we are passengers in for their documents ?
Streetcop said:
Mr Customer, testing his 'thugs car' loses it and hits a tree
You've lost me - was the customer a thug or are drivers of Subaru's thugs?
Did the salesman not check the driving licence or is it a warning to be carefully of who you let sit in the right hand seat if you are in the left?
bluepolarbear said:
Mr Customer, testing his 'thugs car' loses it and hits a tree
You've lost me - was the customer a thug or are drivers of Subaru's thugs?
Did the salesman not check the driving licence or is it a warning to be carefully of who you let sit in the right hand seat if you are in the left?
Good evening Bluepolarbear..
Only me and you up at this time, it would appear...
Nah...I was generalising about Subarus being 'thugs choice of vehicle' in my experience....
I'm sure the salesman must have checked the drivers licence, but that doesn't warn if the guy is going to drive like a maniac or not, does it?
Street
Streetcop said:
Good evening Bluepolarbear..
Only me and you up at this time, it would appear...
Looks like it - early to bed for everyone else. You coming in or going out from your shift?
Streetcop said:
Nah...I was generalising about Subarus being 'thugs choice of vehicle' in my experience....
Yes think you're right. Certainly mine had "fun" on ram raid. Not me at the wheel of course
Streetcop said:
I'm sure the salesman must have checked the drivers licence, but that doesn't warn if the guy is going to drive like a maniac or not, does it?
Street
you can check a driving licence doesnt mean the guy isnt going to try and prove he's ayrton senna... as for the thugs car comment - maybe if all coppers werent wnakers then there'd be less crime
i take my life in my hands the minute i sit in a car on a test drive, if the driver ever does something dumb enough to get to court the dealer is always portrayed as the bad guy - and should have had more control over the driver...
we are in a lose lose situation and your biased opinion helps us fluck all...
innocent before proven guilty my arse
ScoobyZoom said:
... as for the thugs car comment - maybe if all coppers werent wnakers then there'd be less crime
Nah, crime is down to Scum not wnaker coppers...! Scum, pure and simple in all it's forms...
Oh, and a couple of coppers at my nick drive Subarus and they get the piss taken out of them regularly for driving thugs cars. Why do we call em thugs cars..? Well 8/10 of the biggest scumbag criminal tossers in my area drive em...can't get away from the fact...
Ok..wnaker?!
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Tuesday 3rd August 01:51
Streetcop said:
... as for the thugs car comment - maybe if all coppers werent wnakers then there'd be less crime
Nah, crime is down to Scum not wnaker coppers...! Scum, pure and simple in all it's forms...
did you not see the rolleyes face? it was to signify sarcasm... I dont believe all coppers are wnakers... I wrote it because of your comment...
Streetcop said:
Ok..wnaker?!
Street
ok now I think your a wnaker...
ScoobyZoom said:
ScoobyZoom said:
... as for the thugs car comment - maybe if all coppers werent wnakers then there'd be less crime
Nah, crime is down to Scum not wnaker coppers...! Scum, pure and simple in all it's forms...
did you not see the rolleyes face? it was to signify sarcasm... I dont believe all coppers are wnakers... I wrote it because of your comment...
Streetcop said:
Ok..wnaker?!
Street
ok now I think your a wnaker...
It's like being back at school ain't it?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Working on a dual carraigeway today..(I was passenger/observer)..
We were in a long line of cars overtaking a couple of slow moving HGVs...what flies up the inside lane undertaking everyone? A bright red Subaru Impreza.. (I didn't need to look, did I?..
)
He brakes hard as he approaches the rear of the tail end HGV, and it now parallel to our vehicle...(all batenburged/chevroned up are we..) The driver...(I wont describe him for fear of stereotypical bleatings), looks at me with an expression as if we're in the wrong..!
We'll have to see what the magistrates have to say about the matter.....;shout: Muppet!
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Tuesday 3rd August 15:43
We were in a long line of cars overtaking a couple of slow moving HGVs...what flies up the inside lane undertaking everyone? A bright red Subaru Impreza..
(I didn't need to look, did I?..) He brakes hard as he approaches the rear of the tail end HGV, and it now parallel to our vehicle...(all batenburged/chevroned up are we..) The driver...(I wont describe him for fear of stereotypical bleatings), looks at me with an expression as if we're in the wrong..!
We'll have to see what the magistrates have to say about the matter.....;shout: Muppet!
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Tuesday 3rd August 15:43
Streetcop said:
We were in a long line of cars overtaking a couple of slow moving HGVs...what flies up the inside lane undertaking everyone? A bright red Subaru Impreza..
He brakes hard as he approaches the rear of the tail end HGV, and it now parallel to our vehicle...(all batenburged/chevroned up are we..) The driver...(I wont describe him for fear of stereotypical bleatings), looks at me with an expression as if we're in the wrong..!
yep... i'm back at school...
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