So what "advanced training" do the Police do?
Discussion
I was watching Police Copper Interceptors Camera Action (forget which one exactly) on one of those lower class channels above BBC2 but before you reach BBC3 and there was a rather entertaining chase between a Police Evo, and a couple of Volvos against some tw@ in an Astra.
Now, to the point, the young lady driving the Volvo was going above 130 mph (late a night mind) in order to catch up with the chase going further on up the road. However, we were told this is safe because "she is a highly trained police driver"...
And in the Evo the guy was chasing the Astra around some terracing and was keeping up because he was "highly trained".
Now, please don't take this as a dig against police drivers (I mean the traffic/pursuit kind, "ordinary" police seem to be as bad as the rest of us) but what driving do they actually do. If I'm going at 130 mph in my T5 (I would imagine...) it requires concentration and a hell of a lot of forward observation but in terms of actually controlling the vehicle, on a M'way at least it is not tricky even for a mere driving mortal like myself... What training do they do to prepare for this?
Also in the town scene in the Evo I suspect a large part of the reason he was keeping up was because he was in an Evo, and the other guy was in an Astra. However if the other guy was in an Evo what is it the Police do that would give them the edge?
Do they do track or skid-pan training to learn control? I would imagine they are trained and assessed in observation skills alot more than "ordinary" drivers. It didn't appear they were taught things like heel-toeing for example as a few of the downshifts in an Insignia later in the show were causing the poor camera man to lurch forward...
Anyhow, genuinely curious to hear from any BiB on this...
Now, to the point, the young lady driving the Volvo was going above 130 mph (late a night mind) in order to catch up with the chase going further on up the road. However, we were told this is safe because "she is a highly trained police driver"...
And in the Evo the guy was chasing the Astra around some terracing and was keeping up because he was "highly trained".
Now, please don't take this as a dig against police drivers (I mean the traffic/pursuit kind, "ordinary" police seem to be as bad as the rest of us) but what driving do they actually do. If I'm going at 130 mph in my T5 (I would imagine...) it requires concentration and a hell of a lot of forward observation but in terms of actually controlling the vehicle, on a M'way at least it is not tricky even for a mere driving mortal like myself... What training do they do to prepare for this?
Also in the town scene in the Evo I suspect a large part of the reason he was keeping up was because he was in an Evo, and the other guy was in an Astra. However if the other guy was in an Evo what is it the Police do that would give them the edge?
Do they do track or skid-pan training to learn control? I would imagine they are trained and assessed in observation skills alot more than "ordinary" drivers. It didn't appear they were taught things like heel-toeing for example as a few of the downshifts in an Insignia later in the show were causing the poor camera man to lurch forward...
Anyhow, genuinely curious to hear from any BiB on this...
They get very intensive training, involves narrating their entire journey and being scored by the instructors, they dont all make the grade, it is pretty tough, they do also do skid pan and evasive type maneuvers as well.
There are different courses, like pursuit training, riot van training, outriding, protection etc, cant remember all the details and it varies between forces, some subcontract to larger forces. I did a days training to be put on the forces insurance as it was a stipulation to drive Police vehicles (Civillian ones anyway)
There are different courses, like pursuit training, riot van training, outriding, protection etc, cant remember all the details and it varies between forces, some subcontract to larger forces. I did a days training to be put on the forces insurance as it was a stipulation to drive Police vehicles (Civillian ones anyway)
I did a day, courtesy of work a long while back doing the similar training. Trying to narrate your whole journey, aswell as drive quickly, is really an art.
Add to that following a pursuit car, listening and replying on radio, and judging all the traffic, and people around you (unlike the scroat your chasing) I can imagine isnt that simple!
I was dead after a few hours, these guys do it for much more than that, huge respect!
Add to that following a pursuit car, listening and replying on radio, and judging all the traffic, and people around you (unlike the scroat your chasing) I can imagine isnt that simple!
I was dead after a few hours, these guys do it for much more than that, huge respect!
Wattsie said:
So how would one go about getting such a driving qualification?
Presumably they can be done if you find a qualified assessment bloke?
Join the police, get on traffic and get an advanced course?Presumably they can be done if you find a qualified assessment bloke?
The key to good pursuit driving is the same as it is for all good response driving. Control the vehicle well, keep it smooth, observe well and importantly, avoid the red mist. Easy to write all of that down, much tougher to attain in practice and traffic cops are the best of the lot at it, as they are always on top of their skills.
I don't find commentary hard at all, even at higher speeds. It's just a method of assessing how you are driving, what you are observing and what your thought processes are. Some people find it immensely challenging though, it's not something everyone can do or do well.
Long time ago - early 80's, but when I did mine:
3 week course, 1st week restricted to max 100mph when in NSL. Signs, lines & all posted speed limits to be complied with. Mostly manual gearbox but training also given on automatic.
2 days on skid pan with test at end of the 2 days. Front & rear wheel drive vehicles. Fail skid pan test (if you don't complete a preset course within a set time, hit too many cones, lose control of the vehicle, hit the kerb around the pan), fail course.
Written exam based on the driving manual every week. Fail one you were off the course. (Now done before the course, but still a fail=no course)
Over 90% of driving on A & B & nasty little twisty country roads. Some motorway but not much, the view being that anyone can drive fast in a straight line.
Night driving.
Usually an hour behind the wheel - 1 in the morning 1 in the afternoon - then rotate with one of the other students in the car.
Progress test with the Chief Instructor at the end of each week, fail one fail the course.
If instructor considers you unsuitable or unlikely to reach the required standard, fail the course.
Final test (incl short pursuit element with instructor in target car) 1 hour and commentary as you drive with Chief Instructor. Failure to comply with ANY road sign automatic fail of whole test.
The most important element is advanced observation - being aware of everything on the road & changes in the road surface ahead as far as you can see & planning accordingly - & the commentary assists the instructors to know when the penny has dropped.
3 week course, 1st week restricted to max 100mph when in NSL. Signs, lines & all posted speed limits to be complied with. Mostly manual gearbox but training also given on automatic.
2 days on skid pan with test at end of the 2 days. Front & rear wheel drive vehicles. Fail skid pan test (if you don't complete a preset course within a set time, hit too many cones, lose control of the vehicle, hit the kerb around the pan), fail course.
Written exam based on the driving manual every week. Fail one you were off the course. (Now done before the course, but still a fail=no course)
Over 90% of driving on A & B & nasty little twisty country roads. Some motorway but not much, the view being that anyone can drive fast in a straight line.
Night driving.
Usually an hour behind the wheel - 1 in the morning 1 in the afternoon - then rotate with one of the other students in the car.
Progress test with the Chief Instructor at the end of each week, fail one fail the course.
If instructor considers you unsuitable or unlikely to reach the required standard, fail the course.
Final test (incl short pursuit element with instructor in target car) 1 hour and commentary as you drive with Chief Instructor. Failure to comply with ANY road sign automatic fail of whole test.
The most important element is advanced observation - being aware of everything on the road & changes in the road surface ahead as far as you can see & planning accordingly - & the commentary assists the instructors to know when the penny has dropped.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 3rd July 17:16
You can have all the 'training' courses you like, but as a serial watcher of these kind of shows you see what in any other context would be dangerous driving all the time. There are many accidents where you see police vehicles crashing even on the filtered down clips you get to see on TV. One that springs to mind was a pursuit car smashing into the rear of another parked on the hard shoulder as they were pulling up to chase some scrote through a field..some great advanced training judgement there..
I think a certain amount of delusion is required to think that their training allows them to blat around city centres on full chat and storm down motorways with 70mph closing speeds in a safe manner. I think its this hypocrisy that makes traffic police hard to bare when they're catching Mrs Smith for some minor speeding and start with their well rehearsed lectures.
I think a certain amount of delusion is required to think that their training allows them to blat around city centres on full chat and storm down motorways with 70mph closing speeds in a safe manner. I think its this hypocrisy that makes traffic police hard to bare when they're catching Mrs Smith for some minor speeding and start with their well rehearsed lectures.
This is something I saved a while ago - with permission - might add to the above replies...
If you really want to raise your level of expertise you can go for RoSPA or IAM...I have had hours of help from Class 1 Trafpols...always surprised at how they give up time to help you if you show interest...
""Paul,
Speaking for the Met, and putting it simply, there are three and a half levels of driving. I am an 'advanced driver' but the police call it something else.
1. Basic - no training, but an assessment on L-test ability before being authorised to drive panda cars only (Fiestas) - no blue light runs allowed!
1.5 Enhanced basic - no training again, but a further assessment before being authorised to drive response vehicles in basic mode (because the Met is not replacing panda cars)
2. Standard response - 3 weeks roadcraft-based intensive training in 2.0 unmarked Zetec Mondeos with covert blue light equipment, including marked station van familiarisation, automatic vehicle familiarisation and covert blue light training. All this authorises the officer to drive marked response cars (generally Astra/Focus - but the response category is determined by power:weight ratio), covert response cars, marked station vans and minibuses - blue light runs, legal exemptions and initiating pursuits (i.e. if a vehicle fails to stop, we follow until an advanced driver comes along). Standard response drivers may also ferry advanced vehicles (i.e. cannot drive them operationally, but just from Station A to Station B).
3. Advanced - 4 (I think) weeks further roadcraft-based training in much more powerful and unmarked BMW 530D or Skoda Octavia 2.8 V6, authorising officers to drive marked and unmarked advanced vehicles (BMW 530D Mondeo Zetec and a host of other stuff that the squads use) and engage and lead pursuits. This is the level to which people often refer as PC1.
On top of this there is tactical pursuit and containment training for traffic patrol/armed response and a host of other stuff for different categories of this and that with which I am not familiar.
Jon.
From: "Paul Lewis"
That's interesting. I thought that all blue light vehicles had advanced drivers in them. Are there different classes of blue light vehicle? This might answer why some of our local police seem to driver poorly (only noted when no blue lights flashing).
BOF
If you really want to raise your level of expertise you can go for RoSPA or IAM...I have had hours of help from Class 1 Trafpols...always surprised at how they give up time to help you if you show interest...
""Paul,
Speaking for the Met, and putting it simply, there are three and a half levels of driving. I am an 'advanced driver' but the police call it something else.
1. Basic - no training, but an assessment on L-test ability before being authorised to drive panda cars only (Fiestas) - no blue light runs allowed!
1.5 Enhanced basic - no training again, but a further assessment before being authorised to drive response vehicles in basic mode (because the Met is not replacing panda cars)
2. Standard response - 3 weeks roadcraft-based intensive training in 2.0 unmarked Zetec Mondeos with covert blue light equipment, including marked station van familiarisation, automatic vehicle familiarisation and covert blue light training. All this authorises the officer to drive marked response cars (generally Astra/Focus - but the response category is determined by power:weight ratio), covert response cars, marked station vans and minibuses - blue light runs, legal exemptions and initiating pursuits (i.e. if a vehicle fails to stop, we follow until an advanced driver comes along). Standard response drivers may also ferry advanced vehicles (i.e. cannot drive them operationally, but just from Station A to Station B).
3. Advanced - 4 (I think) weeks further roadcraft-based training in much more powerful and unmarked BMW 530D or Skoda Octavia 2.8 V6, authorising officers to drive marked and unmarked advanced vehicles (BMW 530D Mondeo Zetec and a host of other stuff that the squads use) and engage and lead pursuits. This is the level to which people often refer as PC1.
On top of this there is tactical pursuit and containment training for traffic patrol/armed response and a host of other stuff for different categories of this and that with which I am not familiar.
Jon.
From: "Paul Lewis"
That's interesting. I thought that all blue light vehicles had advanced drivers in them. Are there different classes of blue light vehicle? This might answer why some of our local police seem to driver poorly (only noted when no blue lights flashing).
BOF
NISaxoVTR said:
I think a certain amount of delusion is required to think that their training allows them to blat around city centres on full chat and storm down motorways with 70mph closing speeds in a safe manner. I think its this hypocrisy that makes traffic police hard to bare when they're catching Mrs Smith for some minor speeding and start with their well rehearsed lectures.
So how long has your Mrs Smith been trying to get trafpol to get their kit off?
and why wasn't she around in my day
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 3rd July 17:52
jimbobsimmonds said:
Now, to the point, the young lady driving the Volvo was going above 130 mph (late a night mind) in order to catch up with the chase going further on up the road. However, we were told this is safe because "she is a highly trained police driver"...
And in the Evo the guy was chasing the Astra around some terracing and was keeping up because he was "highly trained".
Over-simplification designed for a dumbed down audience. Yes, police are advanced drivers are highly trained, and are safer in high workload driving situations that the majority of drivers, but this concept would probably to complex for the majority of the demographic watching.And in the Evo the guy was chasing the Astra around some terracing and was keeping up because he was "highly trained".
jimbobsimmonds said:
...but what driving do they actually do...
...a hell of a lot of forward observation
Answered you own question. After concentration, observation is the key. From observation you can anticipate, then prepare for what may happen next....a hell of a lot of forward observation
Car control is less relevant to safe driving, and if fact many police forces have stopped skid pan training due to the prevalence of driver aids on panda and traffic cars.
jimbobsimmonds said:
It didn't appear they were taught things like heel-toeing for example as a few of the downshifts in an Insignia later in the show were causing the poor camera man to lurch forward...
Smoothness is not a priority for police drivers, let alone in a pursuit situation. Their aim is to make best progress in a safe manner. Police drivers do not pay for their own petrol, tyres, brakes, clutch, suspension!In the 'real world', safety is the priority. Smoothness, progress and mechanical sympathy come second, but can be arranged for the journey context.
If you want a taste of what it's all about, try either an IAM, Rospa, HPC, an ADUK day (free) or even tuition with an ex-Police Advanced driver trainer. PM me if you want more details of the latter.
Oh, and this book explains all.
I'm not BiB,
A gold RoSPA test is said to be the highest civilian driving qualification in the UK. You may be able to find it by seraching but it was said that a gold grade was equivalent to a police Class 1 licence.
RoSPA Assessors are all current or former class 1 holding traffic officers, though with the cutbacks and changes within the police their exact role in their police jobs may have changed. One of the criticisms from one of my RoSPA tests was that I wasn't reading out the road names during my commentary. I'm not sure that's applicable to advanced driving but something that you see on the police, camera, action type programmes.
I've achieved gold and silver and wouldn't say I am that good a driver, but then I've not had to do pursuits at a ton plus. I think it's a case of studying it, practicising roadcraft and applying yourself.
Damon Hill on the 80MPH M-way limit? The standard of driving is shoocking our roads. How difficult can it be to 'nudge' or incentivise people to take further driver training? I never found the supposed insurance benefits worthwhile as those offering a discount were more expensive.
A gold RoSPA test is said to be the highest civilian driving qualification in the UK. You may be able to find it by seraching but it was said that a gold grade was equivalent to a police Class 1 licence.
RoSPA Assessors are all current or former class 1 holding traffic officers, though with the cutbacks and changes within the police their exact role in their police jobs may have changed. One of the criticisms from one of my RoSPA tests was that I wasn't reading out the road names during my commentary. I'm not sure that's applicable to advanced driving but something that you see on the police, camera, action type programmes.
I've achieved gold and silver and wouldn't say I am that good a driver, but then I've not had to do pursuits at a ton plus. I think it's a case of studying it, practicising roadcraft and applying yourself.
Damon Hill on the 80MPH M-way limit? The standard of driving is shoocking our roads. How difficult can it be to 'nudge' or incentivise people to take further driver training? I never found the supposed insurance benefits worthwhile as those offering a discount were more expensive.
otolith said:
Synchromesh said:
Smoothness is not a priority for police drivers, let alone in a pursuit situation.
In that case, I'm surprised they don't crash more often than they do.I can understand Safety being paramount, but smoothness has to be a part of this surly? Certainly it was emphasized by the Hendon instructor I referred to earlier, along with an awareness of what is happening at each corner of the car in terms of grip and balance.
carinaman said:
I'm not BiB,
A gold RoSPA test is said to be the highest civilian driving qualification in the UK. You may be able to find it by seraching but it was said that a gold grade was equivalent to a police Class 1 licence.
From what I've been told ROSPA gold means 'if the candidate had the opportunity, s/he would have the potential to do well on a police advanced course'.A gold RoSPA test is said to be the highest civilian driving qualification in the UK. You may be able to find it by seraching but it was said that a gold grade was equivalent to a police Class 1 licence.
BOF said:
This is something I saved a while ago - with permission - might add to the above replies...
If you really want to raise your level of expertise you can go for RoSPA or IAM...I have had hours of help from Class 1 Trafpols...always surprised at how they give up time to help you if you show interest...
""Paul,
Speaking for the Met, and putting it simply, there are three and a half levels of driving. I am an 'advanced driver' but the police call it something else.
3. Advanced - 4 (I think) weeks further roadcraft-based training in much more powerful and unmarked BMW 530D or Skoda Octavia 2.8 V6, authorising officers to drive marked and unmarked advanced vehicles (BMW 530D Mondeo Zetec and a host of other stuff that the squads use) and engage and lead pursuits. This is the level to which people often refer as PC1.
From: "Paul Lewis"
BOF
Number 3 is what the civilian advanced courses are based uponIf you really want to raise your level of expertise you can go for RoSPA or IAM...I have had hours of help from Class 1 Trafpols...always surprised at how they give up time to help you if you show interest...
""Paul,
Speaking for the Met, and putting it simply, there are three and a half levels of driving. I am an 'advanced driver' but the police call it something else.
3. Advanced - 4 (I think) weeks further roadcraft-based training in much more powerful and unmarked BMW 530D or Skoda Octavia 2.8 V6, authorising officers to drive marked and unmarked advanced vehicles (BMW 530D Mondeo Zetec and a host of other stuff that the squads use) and engage and lead pursuits. This is the level to which people often refer as PC1.
From: "Paul Lewis"
BOF
For the IAM, commentary is an option for the basic test but mandatory for the SA - Special Assessment test
What can often happen in the force is that response drivers try to emulate the higher traffic drivers and then come a cropper when chasing other vehicles which they should not be doing - they are just supposed to follow at a big distance should it be required until a traffic driver gets there
With all the cutbacks I can see more being asked of response drivers without the extra training
otolith said:
Yes, I would also have said that smoothness is always important.
It most certainly is. A lot of time on the courses is spent on refining the drive to make it smooth. Stabbing at the brakes, failing to match downshifts, jabbing the throttle, dodgy steering inputs etc etc is all a big no-no as car stability is integral to a safe drive when you're pressing on.
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