DWP want me to pay a 20 year old debt
Discussion
Very strange one, a few months ago I started getting letters from the DWP stating I owed the 900 odd quid for over payment of income support, I actually thought this was in relation to my mum that died a couple of years ago and kinda ignored it. Have now received a letter saying that a collection agency will turn up at the door to get the money.
Still thinking this was for my mum I called them, was then stunned to find out its in relation to a supposed overpayment from 1992, to be honest I can not even remeber receiving income support, I know I want through a sticky point when the firm I was with around then went bust and if I remember right I did claim, the only time in my life I ever have.
So, question is, can they really pop up 20 years later and start claiming money from me. Find the whole situation totally bizzare, how the food can it take 20 years to get around to noticing I owe them money.
Still thinking this was for my mum I called them, was then stunned to find out its in relation to a supposed overpayment from 1992, to be honest I can not even remeber receiving income support, I know I want through a sticky point when the firm I was with around then went bust and if I remember right I did claim, the only time in my life I ever have.
So, question is, can they really pop up 20 years later and start claiming money from me. Find the whole situation totally bizzare, how the food can it take 20 years to get around to noticing I owe them money.
Schuey M said:
Pay up and move on. It's the state's money not yours!
Yeah - and the state never makes mistakes does it? OP ignore this comment and do a bit of research on the background - ask what the evidence is. If the DWP has just sold debt on to an agency then there are definitely rules that govern the collection of that debt and it sounds like you need to learn about them! Don't just give away money because someone tells you you need to!
Jasandjules said:
Do they have evidence? Do they have legislation which entitles them to claim after the limitation period of six years?
I don't know if it applies in this case but in this thread it appears that a debt owed to the state can be exempt from statute of limitations.jamesuk28 said:
Don't forget crown debts like this are not subject to the statute of limitations like other debts (6 years) so HMRC can get you at anytime in the future.
A good friend of mine owed HMRC £50k in unpaid income tax from about 5 years ago, they found him and made him bankrupt this year.
A good friend of mine owed HMRC £50k in unpaid income tax from about 5 years ago, they found him and made him bankrupt this year.
HMRC stopped chasing me for an overpayment of tax credits in April to August/September 2003 once six years had passed. Actually, they tried to pursue me into early 2010 but a brisk letter reminding them that I had never acknowledged the alleged debt and it was now over 6 years old (as per The Limitations Act, off the top of my head) stopped the nonsense...
Unfortunately, they seem to be able to claw back alleged overpayments from future tax credit claims, so the fun will start again at some point.
They say I owe £3525. Before the accusing finger is pointed too sharply, they kept paying me despite regular phone calls from the beginning of the April asking them to stop and reassess as my circumstances had changed (very recently widowed, now only one stepchild at home and working full time). They have no record of these numerous calls, oddly enough
.
The initial problem was that when they finally stopped paying me the tax credits in August/September 2003 they didn't change my tax code, which remained as if I was being paid tax credits... What's 10% of one's income anyway??? It was my chasing this discrepancy in 2008 (I incorrectly assumed that it was some sort of device to recoup the overpayment
) that started the ball rolling wrt them trying to claw the tax credits overpayment back; I got all the overpaid tax back though, which some (any) joined-up thinking would have kept to pay the alleged debt...
And I have no idea what I was actually overpaid - payments into a bank are simple; changes to tax codes and their 'cash' equivalent are not so transparent. The system puts the customer at their mercy, and is a shambles.
Not heard from them for over 2 years now though
.
Unfortunately, they seem to be able to claw back alleged overpayments from future tax credit claims, so the fun will start again at some point.
They say I owe £3525. Before the accusing finger is pointed too sharply, they kept paying me despite regular phone calls from the beginning of the April asking them to stop and reassess as my circumstances had changed (very recently widowed, now only one stepchild at home and working full time). They have no record of these numerous calls, oddly enough
.The initial problem was that when they finally stopped paying me the tax credits in August/September 2003 they didn't change my tax code, which remained as if I was being paid tax credits... What's 10% of one's income anyway??? It was my chasing this discrepancy in 2008 (I incorrectly assumed that it was some sort of device to recoup the overpayment
) that started the ball rolling wrt them trying to claw the tax credits overpayment back; I got all the overpaid tax back though, which some (any) joined-up thinking would have kept to pay the alleged debt...And I have no idea what I was actually overpaid - payments into a bank are simple; changes to tax codes and their 'cash' equivalent are not so transparent. The system puts the customer at their mercy, and is a shambles.
Not heard from them for over 2 years now though
.Ask for proof of the debt perhaps...guarenteed the DWP won't be able to provide it :-)
But I think you have to be VERY careful not to acknoledge the debt in any way as that restarts the timrpe limit IRC
Best perhaps to tell them to jog on,and sek proof if they don't. DWP cock it up all the time so don't believe what they say at all
But I think you have to be VERY careful not to acknoledge the debt in any way as that restarts the timrpe limit IRC
Best perhaps to tell them to jog on,and sek proof if they don't. DWP cock it up all the time so don't believe what they say at all
Got chased up in the late nineties for Class 4 NICs, apparently I hadn't paid them for about 15 years.
Fortunately there was an article in the Mail saying no need to pay further back than six years.
NI people weren't impressed when I told them, finally admitting the six year rule - implying I had some sort of moral duty to pay regardless. I certainly didn't pay all the old stuff.
Fortunately there was an article in the Mail saying no need to pay further back than six years.
NI people weren't impressed when I told them, finally admitting the six year rule - implying I had some sort of moral duty to pay regardless. I certainly didn't pay all the old stuff.
ralphrj said:
Jasandjules said:
Do they have evidence? Do they have legislation which entitles them to claim after the limitation period of six years?
I don't know if it applies in this case but in this thread it appears that a debt owed to the state can be exempt from statute of limitations.jamesuk28 said:
Don't forget crown debts like this are not subject to the statute of limitations like other debts (6 years) so HMRC can get you at anytime in the future.
A good friend of mine owed HMRC £50k in unpaid income tax from about 5 years ago, they found him and made him bankrupt this year.
A good friend of mine owed HMRC £50k in unpaid income tax from about 5 years ago, they found him and made him bankrupt this year.
.
So making him bankrupt got them their money back......??
vette
uk_vette said:
ralphrj said:
Jasandjules said:
Do they have evidence? Do they have legislation which entitles them to claim after the limitation period of six years?
I don't know if it applies in this case but in this thread it appears that a debt owed to the state can be exempt from statute of limitations.jamesuk28 said:
Don't forget crown debts like this are not subject to the statute of limitations like other debts (6 years) so HMRC can get you at anytime in the future.
A good friend of mine owed HMRC £50k in unpaid income tax from about 5 years ago, they found him and made him bankrupt this year.
A good friend of mine owed HMRC £50k in unpaid income tax from about 5 years ago, they found him and made him bankrupt this year.
.
So making him bankrupt got them their money back......??
vette
Schuey M said:
There's nothing worse than freeloaders taking benefits they're not entitled to. They should be charged with theft and never be allowed to claim again!
How do you know what people are or are not entitled to, They used to ban trolls on hereOP, I think I would be asking for evidence but don't ignore it, they have unlimited resources and probably would use them to collect if they know where you are.
Edited by Adrian W on Sunday 15th July 09:53
daz3210 said:
So does the limitations act apply or not?
The Limitations Act does not apply to taxes or duties (or interest on taxes or duties) - whether this extends to benefits paid out is not so clear.I have found these minutes of a Public Bill Committee debate on the Welfare Reform Bill and specifically on the recovery of overpaid benefits.
This part specifically discusses the current situation:
Kate Green MP Committee Member said:
This is a probing new clause that seeks assurance from the Minister about the period over which social security overpayments under universal credit could be recovered. Normally, the period of recovery is six years. I am concerned that clause 104 appears to alter that in the case of social security benefits, which would cause hardship or overpayments through claimant or official error, which could go back many years. I just want to understand the Minister’s thinking on how far back such recoveries could go?
Chris Grayling Minister of State Department of Work and Pensions said:
I reassure the hon. Lady that this is not a change in policy; it is a technical clarification following a court case that appeared to question an aspect of the existing law. The new clause would apply the Limitation Act 1980 to all recoveries of social security debts, including through direct deduction from continuing benefit entitlements.
Clause 104 clarifies the application of the Limitation Act to the recovery of benefit overpayments and of social fund and tax credit debts through methods other than court action. It ensures that recovery of such debts through deduction from ongoing entitlements can continue beyond the six-year period of limitation for court action.
It has long been assumed—it was assumed by the previous Government—that the statute of limitations has no application to the recovery of benefit overpayments or social fund debts by means other than court action. Such recovery might be an ongoing month-by-month deduction of £1 a week, or whatever.
There was a recent High Court case involving a local authority, unconnected with the recovery of benefit overpayments or social fund payments, that came to a different view. It is necessary to reintroduce the measure so that we can carry on recovering the balance of our public debt for a period beyond six years. In many cases, seeking to recover social security or tax credit debt by means of deduction in a period of no more than six years actually places an extra financial burden on families.
We are not proposing anything new. The clause simply clarifies a long-standing, well accepted interpretation of the application of limitation legislation to the recovery of such debts. It simply ensures that, given that a court case has thrown it into doubt, there will be no doubt in law that we can recover payments over a long period of time where it is appropriate for the circumstances of the claimant. By law we will not have to bring the shutter down after six years and, therefore, curtail the repayment period.
So, historically, overpaid benefits have been assumed to be exempt from the Limitations Act but a recent court case involving a Local Authority has muddied the waters (as the case is not binding on DWP). To avoid the potential for the DWP to lose a high court challenge the Government has inserted a clause in the Welfare Reform Act 2012 to make it clear that the Limitation Act does not apply.Clause 104 clarifies the application of the Limitation Act to the recovery of benefit overpayments and of social fund and tax credit debts through methods other than court action. It ensures that recovery of such debts through deduction from ongoing entitlements can continue beyond the six-year period of limitation for court action.
It has long been assumed—it was assumed by the previous Government—that the statute of limitations has no application to the recovery of benefit overpayments or social fund debts by means other than court action. Such recovery might be an ongoing month-by-month deduction of £1 a week, or whatever.
There was a recent High Court case involving a local authority, unconnected with the recovery of benefit overpayments or social fund payments, that came to a different view. It is necessary to reintroduce the measure so that we can carry on recovering the balance of our public debt for a period beyond six years. In many cases, seeking to recover social security or tax credit debt by means of deduction in a period of no more than six years actually places an extra financial burden on families.
We are not proposing anything new. The clause simply clarifies a long-standing, well accepted interpretation of the application of limitation legislation to the recovery of such debts. It simply ensures that, given that a court case has thrown it into doubt, there will be no doubt in law that we can recover payments over a long period of time where it is appropriate for the circumstances of the claimant. By law we will not have to bring the shutter down after six years and, therefore, curtail the repayment period.
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