No collision occured ........ but ?

[Nigel Worc's]

How would this pan out ?

My entry to the tunnel was at 18 to 20 mph, as you'll see, just as I enter the tunnel the lights turn to amber (I'm well over the temp stop line), so the lights have been red for the cyclist, for a whole light cycle.

He's lucky I wasn't driving a lorry or bus, he wouldn't have been able to squeeze past then.

What makes "them" behave in this way, stupidity, impatience, a belief that the nasty driver will always be blamed ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Z82lwd11c&fea...

[creampuff]

The same reason that makes a proportion of cyclists try and go straight ahead next to the kerb when there is a HGV turning left, killing themselves in the process.

Lack of planning and lack of asking themselves "what if?"

[7db]

Why didn't you stop?

[KardioKate]

Lidl. Nom. They have good meat and cheeses.

[surveyor]

You did seem to be going into a poor visual scene at a bit of a lick. He should not have been there either obviously!

[sneijder]

Might just have been the camera, but it seems you put your life in the hands of the traffic light there.

[Derek Smith]

If you'd hit him the police might well have asked you why you did not stop when you saw him in the tunnel. Green does not, and never has meant, go. It means in essence you may proceed if it is safe to do so.

[Nigel Worc's]

7db said:

Why didn't you stop?

Light to dark scenario, I only dropped 2 mph according to the camera, passed him at 16 mph, so that would mean I didn't even brake (and of course I know I didn't brake, at that lowly speed of 18 mph, according to the camera, plus his forward speed, and the light to dark of the bridge, if he'd been in the middle of the road, I'd have zonked him)!

I wonder why he didn't stop, or attempt to stop ?

[Nigel Worc's]

Derek Smith said:

If you'd hit him the police might well have asked you why you did not stop when you saw him in the tunnel. Green does not, and never has meant, go. It means in essence you may proceed if it is safe to do so.

That's as I thought Derek to be honest.

The onus would be on me, I wonder why the police wouldn't be asking "why was the cretin there in the first place ?"

Edited to add, I didn't "see him", or register his threat to me, in time to react, for whatever reason, wasn't expecting it, light to dark, scratching my balls at the time, whatever.

I wonder, would the Police, as in your good self, have the same thoughts if it'd been a car, motorcycle etc?

Edited by Nigel Worc's on Thursday 9th August 15:39

[Derek Smith]

Nigel Worc's said:

Derek Smith said:

If you'd hit him the police might well have asked you why you did not stop when you saw him in the tunnel. Green does not, and never has meant, go. It means in essence you may proceed if it is safe to do so.

That's as I thought Derek to be honest.

The onus would be on me, I wonder why the police wouldn't be asking "why was the cretin there in the first place ?"

Edited to add, I didn't "see him", or register his threat to me, in time to react, for whatever reason, wasn't expecting it, light to dark, scratching my balls at the time, whatever.

I wonder, would the Police, as in your good self, have the same thoughts if it'd been a car, motorcycle etc?

There would be an offence by the other driver of course. This would be something that could, perhaps, be used as a mitigating factor after the finding of guilt. Perhpas, though.

I seem to remember a recent case where a cyclist was killed and, despite him jumping a red light, and by some seconds, the driver was found guilty of death by dangerous. There were one or two aggravating factors but it is something to bear in mind.

If you were on a police driving course and went across a junction without a clear enough view to give you time to stop if anyone had jumped the lights then you would earn yourself a 'danger' point.

I'm with you: why do cyclists take such risks? What can you do to them? Fine them a few quid but if the chance of death/serious injury doesn't deter them, why should loss of a bit of money?

There's a thesis waiting to be written on the subject.

Take care out there!

[Nigel Worc's]

Derek Smith said:

There would be an offence by the other driver of course. This would be something that could, perhaps, be used as a mitigating factor after the finding of guilt. Perhpas, though.

I seem to remember a recent case where a cyclist was killed and, despite him jumping a red light, and by some seconds, the driver was found guilty of death by dangerous. There were one or two aggravating factors but it is something to bear in mind.

If you were on a police driving course and went across a junction without a clear enough view to give you time to stop if anyone had jumped the lights then you would earn yourself a 'danger' point.

I'm with you: why do cyclists take such risks? What can you do to them? Fine them a few quid but if the chance of death/serious injury doesn't deter them, why should loss of a bit of money?

There's a thesis waiting to be written on the subject.

Take care out there!

I find it disturbing that you either think, or it is your experience, that I am automatically guilty of driving offences, possibly even death by dangerous (assuming he died in any collision), where in essence, I'm actually the innocent party there ........ in my opinion.

[Exige77]

Nigel Worc's said:

Derek Smith said:

There would be an offence by the other driver of course. This would be something that could, perhaps, be used as a mitigating factor after the finding of guilt. Perhpas, though.

I seem to remember a recent case where a cyclist was killed and, despite him jumping a red light, and by some seconds, the driver was found guilty of death by dangerous. There were one or two aggravating factors but it is something to bear in mind.

If you were on a police driving course and went across a junction without a clear enough view to give you time to stop if anyone had jumped the lights then you would earn yourself a 'danger' point.

I'm with you: why do cyclists take such risks? What can you do to them? Fine them a few quid but if the chance of death/serious injury doesn't deter them, why should loss of a bit of money?

There's a thesis waiting to be written on the subject.

Take care out there!

I find it disturbing that you either think, or it is your experience, that I am automatically guilty of driving offences, possibly even death by dangerous (assuming he died in any collision), where in essence, I'm actually the innocent party there ........ in my opinion.

^^^^^ what he said. As a normal road user I believe the OP did nothing wrong.

Cyclists are starting to become more and more aggressive from my recent experience.

IMHO they should be liable to "equivalent" penalties as drivers.

Ex77

[Derek Smith]

Nigel Worc's said:

I find it disturbing that you either think, or it is your experience, that I am automatically guilty of driving offences, possibly even death by dangerous (assuming he died in any collision), where in essence, I'm actually the innocent party there ........ in my opinion.

It was my job to make such decisions, or rather supervise those who did.

The example here is quite clear: The cyclist was in the tunnel. You drove into the tunnel. That makes you guilty. The cyclist may be guilty of failing to conform to red ATS but we don't know if he had a moment in the tunnel. Perhaps a dog ran out and he had to brake, as it would if he was seen by a brief before being questioned by police.

Let's make it clear: a green ATS does not mean you can drive across the controlled junction any more than it would if the lights on a traffic light controlled pedestrian crossing showed green and there were pedestrians crossing.

I'm only the messenger of course, but if I was making the laws I could see no sensible alternative.

[GadgeS3C]

"Always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear" is the mantra.

Hard to follow on UK roads today but worth remembering. The cyclist is in the wrong but what if he'd been driving a car? Would you have been able to stop?

Generally takes two to have a collision.

The above might sound a bit arrogant but years of motorcycling means I'm happy to try and prevent others having a collision with me, even if I'm in the right

[SirSamuelBuca]

i see nothing wrong. Light to dark you would have no chance. stupid cyclist

[Deva Link]

Nigel Worc's said:

Light to dark scenario, I only dropped 2 mph according to the camera, passed him at 16 mph, so that would mean I didn't even brake (and of course I know I didn't brake, at that lowly speed of 18 mph, according to the camera,

Sorry if I'm missing something, but how does the camera record your speed? Can you see it when you watch the playback - it doesn't show on YouTube?

[Nigel Worc's]

Derek Smith said:

It was my job to make such decisions, or rather supervise those who did.

The example here is quite clear: The cyclist was in the tunnel. You drove into the tunnel. That makes you guilty. The cyclist may be guilty of failing to conform to red ATS but we don't know if he had a moment in the tunnel. Perhaps a dog ran out and he had to brake, as it would if he was seen by a brief before being questioned by police.

Let's make it clear: a green ATS does not mean you can drive across the controlled junction any more than it would if the lights on a traffic light controlled pedestrian crossing showed green and there were pedestrians crossing.

I'm only the messenger of course, but if I was making the laws I could see no sensible alternative.

I think you are not taking into account that the cyclist was cycling towards me, not a stationary hazard, a stationary hazard, in my opinion, would be a different ballgame.

As the lights have just changed to amber (which I only saw from the video, I'd not have known that otherwise, once across the temp stop line, the lights don't concern me, so I'm not watching them, I'd have been looking where I was going), we know that the lights the other way had been red for a whole cycle, plus the "tunnel clearance time" those lights have (I only live up the road so I know they have clearance time).

But thankyou for your response, the hospital is at the top of that road, so ambulances on blues and twos are a common occurance there, then it's interesting.

Also, notice the road straight ahead as I turn left for the tunnel .... the one with give way lines ?

You should see the fun there at peak times, by people that can't either wait behind a give way line, or have never heard of zip merging, and don't seem to appreciate that people coming the other way actually have priority (except cyclists of course, they have prioroty all the time whatever the circumstances, as your reply confirms).

[Bill]

More importantly, what the hell are you listening to?

[Nigel Worc's]

Deva Link said:

Nigel Worc's said:

Light to dark scenario, I only dropped 2 mph according to the camera, passed him at 16 mph, so that would mean I didn't even brake (and of course I know I didn't brake, at that lowly speed of 18 mph, according to the camera,

Sorry if I'm missing something, but how does the camera record your speed? Can you see it when you watch the playback - it doesn't show on YouTube?

Yes, I'm sorry, you will only be able to see the speed (gps), gps position, and g forces on the camera if you have the roadhawk software, and play the clip through that.

I don't know how to post in such a way that you can see all that data, but it is embedded in the clip.

[Nigel Worc's]

GadgeS3C said:

"Always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear" is the mantra.

Hard to follow on UK roads today but worth remembering. The cyclist is in the wrong but what if he'd been driving a car? Would you have been able to stop?

Generally takes two to have a collision.

The above might sound a bit arrogant but years of motorcycling means I'm happy to try and prevent others having a collision with me, even if I'm in the right

I've been a motorcyclist since 1977, does that change your opinion of me ?

I'd probably have seen a car earlier, or even heard it, but to be honest, cars running red lights into tunnels isn't common, that isn't the first time I've seen a cyclist do that, at that tunnel, whilst I'm waiting to enter from the otherway ..... i'm waiting for one to be squished at some point.

The other common one, motorcyclists are also guilty of this, but are generally easier to see/hear, is for them to come down the outside of the waiting traffic whilst the lights are on red, and try to ride into the side of cars when the lights turn green.