V5 retention on new commercial vehicle purchase???

[Griff Boy]

Hi,

I'm just in the process of buying a new Citroen relay for my business (vat registered LTD company) and I thought I had just finalised up a deal with a supplier for the vehicle. A brand new 62plate.

I was just about to pay the deposit yesterday (the VAT and road fund licence) when I was going through a few questions regarding the HP options and I was told that they would keep the V5 document for the first 11months of the deal. When I asked why, I was told that the manufacturer sell to them at a reduced rate as fleet sales, and that they (Citroen) insist that the V5 is held to stop me reselling the van on too quickly at to low a price so as not to devalue the product...... Now this sounds a bit dodgy to me (I held off paying the deposit, and said I would confirm it this morning instead), so I have done a bit of digging in the mean time, and it appears there is a 'dodge' in the industry where the vehicle is registered to a fleet / hire company to get the discount from the manufacturer, it appears to be registered to that company for the first 11months, then when I get the v5, just in time to re tax it, I am showing as the second owner? Also, surely this brings about insurance issues, as I would not be the registered keeper, nor able to provide the v5 to the police?

Has anyone else heard of this, or I am just being paranoid about it? I obviously want the best deal on the vehicle, but not if I end up in a dodgy situation.

Any help or advice would be appreciated!

[Pontoneer]

If you are 'purchasing' the vehicle , can't you just apply to DVLA for the document anyway ?

Lack of it wouldn't prevent you selling it in any case ; people sell vehicles without documents every day : that's why there is a standard form at the post office to apply for one .

Does cost you £25 though .

[markmullen]

If they're registering it on a fleet code, or as a demo, to get it cheaper then yes, it is not uncommon for the dealer to withhold the V5, otherwise they would have their bonus clawed back by the manufacturer which could cost them an awful lot.

Legally you'll still be the owner of the van (or the finance company will if it is financed) so no issue there.

[Griff Boy]

markmullen said:

If they're registering it on a fleet code, or as a demo, to get it cheaper then yes, it is not uncommon for the dealer to withhold the V5, otherwise they would have their bonus clawed back by the manufacturer which could cost them an awful lot.

Legally you'll still be the owner of the van (or the finance company will if it is financed) so no issue there.

But what happens if the company that it is registered to for the first year goes bust? And also how can I insure it properly when im not the registered keeper?

Also, if the driver gets stopped, I can't "produce docs" to the police station or would not fines go to the registered keepers?

It all sounds pretty dubious to me, is it 100% legal?

[LoonR1]

You can insure it, as it owned by a lease company. Most companies do this with their fleets.

Or, you can run a mile, waving your hands above your head screaming "Unclean" at the top of your voice, then pay much more from another dealer.

[Griff Boy]

LoonR1 said:

You can insure it, as it owned by a lease company. Most companies do this with their fleets.

Or, you can run a mile, waving your hands above your head screaming "Unclean" at the top of your voice, then pay much more from another dealer.

Ha, that's not exactly what I'm doing here, but this a difference between getting a good cheap deal and getting not something that might potentially leave me with finance t pay and no vehicle, or no insurance.

Bottom line, the question still stands... Is it illegal what they are proposing?

There's nothing wrong with a business trying to get the best deal on a new van, but not if it gets to the point that it's risky/dodgy/illegal etc etc

[LoonR1]

Griff Boy said:

Ha, that's not exactly what I'm doing here, but this a difference between getting a good cheap deal and getting not something that might potentially leave me with finance t pay and no vehicle, or no insurance.

Bottom line, the question still stands... Is it illegal what they are proposing?

There's nothing wrong with a business trying to get the best deal on a new van, but not if it gets to the point that it's risky/dodgy/illegal etc etc

It's not dodgy, it's how you get good deals and the dealer still gets to make a profit.

[mjb1]

If you're getting it on HP, then you won't be able to sell it within a year anyway would you? Most insurance companies ask who the RK is as well as the owner. If you are saying that you won't be the RK for the first 12 months, and you're not the owner either, then I thought that was something that insurance companies didn't like. But Loon should know better.

I don't think plod ask for the logbook under normal 'producers' anyway, just your licence, insurance and mot.

I'd be more worried that you're buying a citroen.

[mattley]

Which had an article on this last issue.

Their view was don't do it as as it's an insurance minefield. Most insurers won't touch an owner who isn't the registered keeper.

I guess as it's a business you might be able to get suitable cover.

[Petemate]

I don't care if it is legal or not, no way would I go through with a purchase where I was told I would not get the V5 for another one month, never mind 11. I would tell them b0ll0cks and just walk away.

[anonymous-user]

Dunno about "most insurers", for any private lease you're not the registered keeper on the V5. It does cut the field down a bit but I've never had a problem getting insurance.

As for the V5 thing it's technically a form of fraud, the dealer is dishonestly getting fleet discounts by mis-registering the van to some other entity, technically it should be registered in your name or that of your business. Whether you actually care or not..... Meh......

[markmullen]

Petemate said:

I don't care if it is legal or not, no way would I go through with a purchase where I was told I would not get the V5 for another one month, never mind 11. I would tell them b0ll0cks and just walk away.

And pay full whack missing the potentially huge fleet discount to be had?

Good man, you tell em

[Petemate]

markmullen said:

And pay full whack missing the potentially huge fleet discount to be had?

Good man, you tell em

If that is the case, so be it. I view very suspiciously a matter where the new 'owner' does not obtain the V5, and even more disturbing is the possibility of then being shown as the second owner. Something not right here.

[markmullen]

Petemate said:

If that is the case, so be it. I view very suspiciously a matter where the new 'owner' does not obtain the V5, and even more disturbing is the possibility of then being shown as the second owner. Something not right here.

It has been explained why it is done, not particularly dodgy, just exploiting the fleet code system. The only party to lose out is the manufacturer who gives fleet discount on a retail sale.

For all those worrying take a look at a new style red V5C, what does it say right at the top in the blue band in big letters? " This document is not proof of ownership. It shows who is responsible for registering and taxing the vehicle".

[Griff Boy]

Just to clarify, although I'm not sure if it makes a difference, I'm buying this vehicle on a HP scheme, NOT leasing it. So the insurers issue is more relevant.

Cheers for the opinions so far!

[LoonR1]

Griff Boy said:

Just to clarify, although I'm not sure if it makes a difference, I'm buying this vehicle on a HP scheme, NOT leasing it. So the insurers issue is more relevant.

Cheers for the opinions so far!

It doesn't matter for insurance purposes on a Commercial Lines policy.

In any event on HP you don't own the vehicle even on a private purchase hence the name HIRE purchase until you've paid the final HIRE payment.

As I've said before stop flapping or flap and pay full whack. It's your choice. You're coming across as someone who wants one poster to agree with them so that you can go into the dealers and demand the V5 by waving the comment form a poster on PH as your justification.

[Griff Boy]

LoonR1 said:

It doesn't matter for insurance purposes on a Commercial Lines policy.

In any event on HP you don't own the vehicle even on a private purchase hence the name HIRE purchase until you've paid the final HIRE payment.

As I've said before stop flapping or flap and pay full whack. It's your choice. You're coming across as someone who wants one poster to agree with them so that you can go into the dealers and demand the V5 by waving the comment form a poster on PH as your justification.

I think you will find I was clarifying the method of purchase as opposed to lease, my post started with the point that I wasn't sure if it made a difference. Maybe you should stop getting your knickers in a twist and stick to constructive comments. The only excessive flapping here is from your mouth. I simply asked for advice not abuse. Now I know why pistonheads is going downhill.

Issue is now resolved, so thanks to everybody else for the useful help and advice. The Citroen main dealer matched the deal and no v5 retention issues.

[LoonR1]

Ignore the fact that your biggest fear was insurance which I happen to be well versed in. I clarified that but that wasn't enough to stop you asking the same question again. Maybe I should get upset about that? Unlikely though in reality.

[Richard C]

Griff Boy said:

Hi,

I'm just in the process of buying a new Citroen relay for my business (vat registered LTD company) and I thought I had just finalised up a deal with a supplier for the vehicle. A brand new 62plate.

I was just about to pay the deposit yesterday (the VAT and road fund licence) when I was going through a few questions regarding the HP options and I was told that they would keep the V5 document for the first 11months of the deal. When I asked why, I was told that the manufacturer sell to them at a reduced rate as fleet sales, and that they (Citroen) insist that the V5 is held to stop me reselling the van on too quickly at to low a price so as not to devalue the product...... Now this sounds a bit dodgy to me (I held off paying the deposit, and said I would confirm it this morning instead), so I have done a bit of digging in the mean time, and it appears there is a 'dodge' in the industry where the vehicle is registered to a fleet / hire company to get the discount from the manufacturer, it appears to be registered to that company for the first 11months, then when I get the v5, just in time to re tax it, I am showing as the second owner? Also, surely this brings about insurance issues, as I would not be the registered keeper, nor able to provide the v5 to the police?

Has anyone else heard of this, or I am just being paranoid about it? I obviously want the best deal on the vehicle, but not if I end up in a dodgy situation.

Any help or advice would be appreciated!

Simply say that if they are only now revealing that they going keep the V5 document for the first 11 months of the deal then you are now demand a better deal - more discount!

[LoonR1]

Griff Boy said:

The Citroen main dealer matched the deal and no v5 retention issues.

What about the deposit on the original van plus the cancellation charges?