Parking Ticket
Discussion
Right, I have a parking ticket for parking in a loading bay.
See the sign below;
I have contested the ticket on the following grounds;
I would like to challenge a PCN on the following grounds. 1) No restricted hours displayed on sign, 2) I was genuinely loading; 3) “Continuously” loading within a 10 minute period
Please see the attached photograph of the said loading bay sign, there are no stated restricted hours, whereas the ticket states that I was parked during restricted hours. As the sign does not state that, this part of the ticket was therefore incorrectly issued.
It was a necessity to park in the loading bay and not merely a convenience; I carried large and heavy boxes following a recent house move from my apartment to my vehicle in the loading bay which is directly outside the apartment building. I park at a nearby NCP car park on Chadwick Street and moved my vehicle on this occasion from the NCP car park to the loading bay in order to move the large and heavy boxes.
Leeds City Council’s document titled “A to Z of parking” states the following; “if the motorist is delivering goods to the 20th floor for example, it is likely that there may be a period in excess of 5-10 minutes where no activity is observed by a CEO. It is important to understand that this does not mean that no loading or unloading was taking place” .In light of that statement, I was loading from the 7th floor and the total duration of the may have been upto 10 minutes this does not imply that I was not loading, I tried to be as quick as physically possible. In addition to which I left the hazard warning lights flashing in an attempt to show that I was loading. I would not leave my vehicle’s lights flashing for more than 10 minutes as the battery of the vehicle would become drained. Once again this part of the ticket was therefore incorrectly issued. I can understand how the parking officer may have reached their conclusion; however, I can assure you that this is a genuine case of an incorrect ticket.
I light of the points above, I strongly believe this PCN was issued incorrectly. I was genuinely loading and not breaching any parking conditions. As such please revoke this PCN.
This was the response;
[i] Thank you for your letter regarding the above PCN. The Civil Enforcement Officer issued the PCN to your vehicle as it was parked in contravention of the waiting restrictions in force.
I have noted your comments and would advise that as there is no time plate advising of the hours of restriction of the loading bay, the restriction of the loading bay is at all times.
Because of your comments I have looked at the Civil Enforcement Officers notes, but there are no references made to any loading or unloading taking place from the vehicle.
I have noted your comments but must advise that the guidelines used by CEO’s in respect of loading and unloading is that the activity around the vehicle should be continuous, therefore to be seen to be loading and unloading. No other activity is permitted to be undertaken whilst the vehicle is parked for loading/unloading purposes.
Loading can be defined as a vehicle stopping to load or unload bulky or heavy goods. The goods must be of a type that cannot be easily carried by one person in one trip. If they can then the vehicle should be parked legally and the goods carried to the premises.
As you are aware the PCN was issued because the vehicle was observed for five minutes parked in a loading bay. During this period the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) has reported that no activity was seen to take place. It is accepted by the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, the body dealing with PCNs, that a PCN can be issued after a five minute observation. It is then the responsibility of the motorist to prove that loading was taking place. Unless you can provide proof, such as a copy of your tenancy agreement which shows the date the tenancy expired your reasons for parking at that location are not sufficient for the PCN to be withdrawn. You will need to supply this documentation within 14 days of the date of this letter. If you are not able to provide the requested information than I regret that no further consideration can be given and I request payment
If you decide to pay, please refer to the ‘How To Pay’ notice enclosed with this letter. Because you wrote to us during the period when you could have paid the penalty charge at the reduced rate, I have decided to offer you a further 14 days from the date of this letter, during which you can pay the reduced amount of £35.00
If you decide to continue to appeal, please refer to the ‘Further Information’ notice also enclosed with this letter[/i]
Does anybody know where I stand? Should I just pay up?
See the sign below;
I have contested the ticket on the following grounds;
I would like to challenge a PCN on the following grounds. 1) No restricted hours displayed on sign, 2) I was genuinely loading; 3) “Continuously” loading within a 10 minute period
Please see the attached photograph of the said loading bay sign, there are no stated restricted hours, whereas the ticket states that I was parked during restricted hours. As the sign does not state that, this part of the ticket was therefore incorrectly issued.
It was a necessity to park in the loading bay and not merely a convenience; I carried large and heavy boxes following a recent house move from my apartment to my vehicle in the loading bay which is directly outside the apartment building. I park at a nearby NCP car park on Chadwick Street and moved my vehicle on this occasion from the NCP car park to the loading bay in order to move the large and heavy boxes.
Leeds City Council’s document titled “A to Z of parking” states the following; “if the motorist is delivering goods to the 20th floor for example, it is likely that there may be a period in excess of 5-10 minutes where no activity is observed by a CEO. It is important to understand that this does not mean that no loading or unloading was taking place” .In light of that statement, I was loading from the 7th floor and the total duration of the may have been upto 10 minutes this does not imply that I was not loading, I tried to be as quick as physically possible. In addition to which I left the hazard warning lights flashing in an attempt to show that I was loading. I would not leave my vehicle’s lights flashing for more than 10 minutes as the battery of the vehicle would become drained. Once again this part of the ticket was therefore incorrectly issued. I can understand how the parking officer may have reached their conclusion; however, I can assure you that this is a genuine case of an incorrect ticket.
I light of the points above, I strongly believe this PCN was issued incorrectly. I was genuinely loading and not breaching any parking conditions. As such please revoke this PCN.
This was the response;
[i] Thank you for your letter regarding the above PCN. The Civil Enforcement Officer issued the PCN to your vehicle as it was parked in contravention of the waiting restrictions in force.
I have noted your comments and would advise that as there is no time plate advising of the hours of restriction of the loading bay, the restriction of the loading bay is at all times.
Because of your comments I have looked at the Civil Enforcement Officers notes, but there are no references made to any loading or unloading taking place from the vehicle.
I have noted your comments but must advise that the guidelines used by CEO’s in respect of loading and unloading is that the activity around the vehicle should be continuous, therefore to be seen to be loading and unloading. No other activity is permitted to be undertaken whilst the vehicle is parked for loading/unloading purposes.
Loading can be defined as a vehicle stopping to load or unload bulky or heavy goods. The goods must be of a type that cannot be easily carried by one person in one trip. If they can then the vehicle should be parked legally and the goods carried to the premises.
As you are aware the PCN was issued because the vehicle was observed for five minutes parked in a loading bay. During this period the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) has reported that no activity was seen to take place. It is accepted by the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, the body dealing with PCNs, that a PCN can be issued after a five minute observation. It is then the responsibility of the motorist to prove that loading was taking place. Unless you can provide proof, such as a copy of your tenancy agreement which shows the date the tenancy expired your reasons for parking at that location are not sufficient for the PCN to be withdrawn. You will need to supply this documentation within 14 days of the date of this letter. If you are not able to provide the requested information than I regret that no further consideration can be given and I request payment
If you decide to pay, please refer to the ‘How To Pay’ notice enclosed with this letter. Because you wrote to us during the period when you could have paid the penalty charge at the reduced rate, I have decided to offer you a further 14 days from the date of this letter, during which you can pay the reduced amount of £35.00
If you decide to continue to appeal, please refer to the ‘Further Information’ notice also enclosed with this letter[/i]
Does anybody know where I stand? Should I just pay up?
Edited by T16OLE on Wednesday 24th October 10:18
So, you were 'loading' something from floor 7. What was it? Can you demonstrate that to load you had to park there because the item(s) were so bulky that you could not have parked legally elsewhere? The CEO noticed no activity for five minutes. Must have been a very big and bulky item?
Pay up.
Pay up.
"Unless you can provide proof, such as a copy of your tenancy agreement which shows the date the tenancy expired your reasons for parking at that location are not sufficient for the PCN to be withdrawn."
Can you provide this proof? If so it's all good, if not then you have a fight on your hands. If I didn't have the proof they want I'd give up at this point, but then I'm a slacker.
Can you provide this proof? If so it's all good, if not then you have a fight on your hands. If I didn't have the proof they want I'd give up at this point, but then I'm a slacker.
Captain Muppet said:
"Unless you can provide proof, such as a copy of your tenancy agreement which shows the date the tenancy expired your reasons for parking at that location are not sufficient for the PCN to be withdrawn."
Can you provide this proof? If so it's all good, if not then you have a fight on your hands. If I didn't have the proof they want I'd give up at this point, but then I'm a slacker.
I`ll probably just give up, the bukly items were my bloody winter tyres too. Can you provide this proof? If so it's all good, if not then you have a fight on your hands. If I didn't have the proof they want I'd give up at this point, but then I'm a slacker.
Can't help with the problem, but I have noticed there seem to be a large number of threads started about parking tickets in Leeds. Are a large number of PHer's from Leeds? Or are the council just struggling for money? Or before someone else says it are we just all northern monkeys who can't park and deserve tickets?
Edited by s_zigmond on Wednesday 24th October 10:43
Out of principal, if you were doing as you said, then no, I wouldn't pay.
Surely you can provide the documents that he requested. Although that does reek of smugness, imo. It seems they are asking you to go to great lengths to prove it. However, they are stating that they will take this as evidence. They are telling you what you need to do. Seems fair enough to me. Depends how much your time is worth? This is what these things boil down to.
If you can, provide them with the requested proof and be on your merry way.
In contrast I received a PCN for parking "with one, or more wheels parked on a kerb in a London borough". Resident parking hours are 8:30 - 18:30, in marked bays, which imply parking on the kerb. I parked at the end of a row of cars which were in the bays about 21:00 one night. I was outside the bays due to no space, with two wheels on the kerb, so as not to obstruct the road and to keep in line with the other four cars parked. Also the pavement didn't get smaller, so I wasn't obstructing the footpath for pedestrians etc. What most of us would call sensible parking. I went to move my car the next morning at 8:30 as the other cars had moved. I received a ticket a 8:15. What I would call ridiculous, overzealous parking enforcement. I paid it though, as them are the rules. Next time I parked on the road, as I'm expected to and made it so that people had to give way to each other. Sometimes rules do more harm than good.
Surely you can provide the documents that he requested. Although that does reek of smugness, imo. It seems they are asking you to go to great lengths to prove it. However, they are stating that they will take this as evidence. They are telling you what you need to do. Seems fair enough to me. Depends how much your time is worth? This is what these things boil down to.
If you can, provide them with the requested proof and be on your merry way.
In contrast I received a PCN for parking "with one, or more wheels parked on a kerb in a London borough". Resident parking hours are 8:30 - 18:30, in marked bays, which imply parking on the kerb. I parked at the end of a row of cars which were in the bays about 21:00 one night. I was outside the bays due to no space, with two wheels on the kerb, so as not to obstruct the road and to keep in line with the other four cars parked. Also the pavement didn't get smaller, so I wasn't obstructing the footpath for pedestrians etc. What most of us would call sensible parking. I went to move my car the next morning at 8:30 as the other cars had moved. I received a ticket a 8:15. What I would call ridiculous, overzealous parking enforcement. I paid it though, as them are the rules. Next time I parked on the road, as I'm expected to and made it so that people had to give way to each other. Sometimes rules do more harm than good.
Edited by Birdster on Wednesday 24th October 10:34
TheTurbonator said:
It's pretty much just standard to procedure to reject the first letter of appeal. As said, if you can provide the evidence they've asked for; fight it, if not, just pay the £35 and move on.
This ^^I have no idea about Leeds, if it were Birmingham they would fold more or less automatically at the next stage.
If you can provide the paperwork, please do so. If you, as it appears you may feel like doing, just fold over and give in, they will automatically assume that you were another chancer telling lies to get out of a ticket. That does a disservice to people, like you, who are genuine.
The reply stating the car was observed for 5 minutes is at odds with the website which gives 5 to 10 minutes - so this is in your favour. i would write again enclosing a copy utility bill proving you live there, a copy invoice for your tyres (give them the total weight) and say you will not be paying the ticket and you will see them in court and claim your costs from them. My guess is they will then waive.
I don't think there is a magistrate in the land that would side with the Council with the statement off the website and your evidence of residence etc.
I don't think there is a magistrate in the land that would side with the Council with the statement off the website and your evidence of residence etc.
Captain Muppet said:
"Unless you can provide proof, such as a copy of your tenancy agreement which shows the date the tenancy expired your reasons for parking at that location are not sufficient for the PCN to be withdrawn."
So the only time that folks have to load bulky items is when moving in or out of a new tenancy then is it?elanfan said:
The reply stating the car was observed for 5 minutes is at odds with the website which gives 5 to 10 minutes - so this is in your favour. i would write again enclosing a copy utility bill proving you live there, a copy invoice for your tyres (give them the total weight) and say you will not be paying the ticket and you will see them in court and claim your costs from them. My guess is they will then waive.
I don't think there is a magistrate in the land that would side with the Council with the statement off the website and your evidence of residence etc.
I don't have an invoice for the tyres unfortunately. So is the general consensus pay it or contest?I don't think there is a magistrate in the land that would side with the Council with the statement off the website and your evidence of residence etc.
In addition to the address information, how about a statement about a timed run to check how long it took, i.e leave loading bay walk / carry something up to flat, collect something go back down = x minutes where x > 5.
If their criteria is 5 to 10 minutes you can bet your last shilling the parking bod pressed the print button like this...
4:58, 4.59, 5:00, PRESS PRINT, 5:01, 5:02...
If their criteria is 5 to 10 minutes you can bet your last shilling the parking bod pressed the print button like this...
4:58, 4.59, 5:00, PRESS PRINT, 5:01, 5:02...
T16OLE said:
My main problem with it is; Parked loading place during restricted hours. From the sign that is fundementally wrong or just completely misleading IMO
Do you also go through "No Entry" signs with no times on the sign? Do you drive in bus lanes with no times on the sign?Restricted hours are 24/7.
LCC said:
Unless you can provide proof, such as a copy of your tenancy agreement which shows the date the tenancy expired your reasons for parking at that location are not sufficient for the PCN to be withdrawn....
In other words prove your story about moving out was true and they'll accept your reason for parking there was kosher...I'm sure that in your first communication to them you said nothing in your defence that COULDN'T be proven in your favour...if there's a slightest chance that you may have (shall we say...) 'exaggerated', in the hopes they would cave in, the game is up...pay up and move on.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff