Cutting trafpol costs lives
Discussion
From a recent BBC investigation.
Traffic police cuts 'costing lives'
Road deaths have risen in two of the last three years
More people are being killed on the road because of the falling number of traffic police, say senior officers.
The Home Office has shifted police priority away from the roads to areas such as street robbery and terrorism.
But the Police Superintendents' Association (PSA) wants more attention to be focused on rising road deaths.
And road campaigners have joined forces with safety groups to demand the number of traffic police is increased.
Should we actually be throwing resources at stopping youngsters stealing other youngsters' mobile phones?
Mike McAndrew
PSA
Edmund King, of the RAC Foundation, has written a joint letter from campaigners to senior police.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "In the 1980s, about 15% of the national police force were deployed on traffic duties.
"We estimate it's currently less than 5%. The problem here is there are many offences on the road not being picked up and leading to more deaths and more serious injuries."
Speed cameras have taken over in part from traffic police, but figures show road deaths have risen in two of the last three years.
'No police action'
BBC reporter Roger Harrabin visited a busy London junction, where he saw a car, driven by a man using his mobile phone, narrowly miss a female pedestrian and her son.
Residents told him there was a constant danger caused by motorists, but no police action to stop them.
Roger Harrabin said: "Years ago, junctions like this were scrutinised by police patrols to stop bad drivers before they killed someone.
We need to treat road deaths as a core police priority and unfortunately the home office has not seen fit to make that point explicit
Chief Const Richard Brunstrom
North Wales Police
"But the number of police on traffic duties has more than halved as traffic has grown.
"Now there's little chance of getting caught."
The Home Office has removed traffic policing from the list of core police duties, although spokesman said this did not mean it was being ignored.
Mike McAndrew of the Police Superintendents' Association told Today: "Should we actually be throwing resources at stopping youngsters stealing other youngsters' mobile phones, which in the main, is what the street robbery explosion is about?
Road deaths rose by 1% last year
"Or should we be using some of those resources actually stopping people killing other people on the roads?"
North Wales chief constable Richard Brunstrom, on the same programme, said casualties overall were falling and present tactics were working.
But he added that Britain had the least safe roads in Europe for child casualties, with 218 killed last year.
"These are very serious figures indeed and I'm totally in agreement with the PSA on this," he said.
"We need to treat road deaths as a core police priority and unfortunately the home office has not seen fit to make that point explicit."
Traffic police cuts 'costing lives'
Road deaths have risen in two of the last three years
More people are being killed on the road because of the falling number of traffic police, say senior officers.
The Home Office has shifted police priority away from the roads to areas such as street robbery and terrorism.
But the Police Superintendents' Association (PSA) wants more attention to be focused on rising road deaths.
And road campaigners have joined forces with safety groups to demand the number of traffic police is increased.
Should we actually be throwing resources at stopping youngsters stealing other youngsters' mobile phones?
Mike McAndrew
PSA
Edmund King, of the RAC Foundation, has written a joint letter from campaigners to senior police.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "In the 1980s, about 15% of the national police force were deployed on traffic duties.
"We estimate it's currently less than 5%. The problem here is there are many offences on the road not being picked up and leading to more deaths and more serious injuries."
Speed cameras have taken over in part from traffic police, but figures show road deaths have risen in two of the last three years.
'No police action'
BBC reporter Roger Harrabin visited a busy London junction, where he saw a car, driven by a man using his mobile phone, narrowly miss a female pedestrian and her son.
Residents told him there was a constant danger caused by motorists, but no police action to stop them.
Roger Harrabin said: "Years ago, junctions like this were scrutinised by police patrols to stop bad drivers before they killed someone.
We need to treat road deaths as a core police priority and unfortunately the home office has not seen fit to make that point explicit
Chief Const Richard Brunstrom
North Wales Police
"But the number of police on traffic duties has more than halved as traffic has grown.
"Now there's little chance of getting caught."
The Home Office has removed traffic policing from the list of core police duties, although spokesman said this did not mean it was being ignored.
Mike McAndrew of the Police Superintendents' Association told Today: "Should we actually be throwing resources at stopping youngsters stealing other youngsters' mobile phones, which in the main, is what the street robbery explosion is about?
Road deaths rose by 1% last year
"Or should we be using some of those resources actually stopping people killing other people on the roads?"
North Wales chief constable Richard Brunstrom, on the same programme, said casualties overall were falling and present tactics were working.
But he added that Britain had the least safe roads in Europe for child casualties, with 218 killed last year.
"These are very serious figures indeed and I'm totally in agreement with the PSA on this," he said.
"We need to treat road deaths as a core police priority and unfortunately the home office has not seen fit to make that point explicit."
Yep
I think most people on here will agree with that streetcop.
I would have liked to have seen a trapol around today. Maybe it would have stopped the car that was in front of me.
Reason? 3 small children 2 stood up in the back seat un restrained 1 lying on the parcel shelf
A sharp brake or small colision would have sent them all flying.
A word of advise from a traffic cop could have cured that(at least for one journey) a camera cannot.
I think most people on here will agree with that streetcop.
I would have liked to have seen a trapol around today. Maybe it would have stopped the car that was in front of me.
Reason? 3 small children 2 stood up in the back seat un restrained 1 lying on the parcel shelf
A sharp brake or small colision would have sent them all flying.
A word of advise from a traffic cop could have cured that(at least for one journey) a camera cannot.
Timely post Street
Harrabin blows hot and cold on motoring issues but he's largely on message here. Problem is, some BiB bosses could use this as an excuse for more GATSOs in spite of the clear link between road deaths and trafpol numbers. We could help by e-mailing our local BiB to press for more trained traffic officers, this has got to be preferable to more motorist mugging machines [url]www.police.uk/forces/default.asp[/url]
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
And yet we have the safest roads in the world overall.
Double Hmmmmmmmmmmm
So doesn't that make our roads, relatively, even less safe for child casualties?
Errrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm
So what does that mean?
That our speedophile homicidal maniac drivers are so busy deliberately and specifically targetting ickle children that other road users don't get a look in?
Or is there some other reason why, despite the fact that disportionate numbers of ickle kiddies are being harmed on our roads, we still manage to come out ahead in the general safety league?
Streetcop said:
But he added that Britain had the least safe roads in Europe for child casualties, with 218 killed last year.
And yet we have the safest roads in the world overall.
Double Hmmmmmmmmmmm
So doesn't that make our roads, relatively, even less safe for child casualties?
Errrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm
So what does that mean?
That our speedophile homicidal maniac drivers are so busy deliberately and specifically targetting ickle children that other road users don't get a look in?
Or is there some other reason why, despite the fact that disportionate numbers of ickle kiddies are being harmed on our roads, we still manage to come out ahead in the general safety league?
Very unlikely that the reduction in traffic police is increasing deaths. Much more likely to be congestion creation schemes. The increase in intensity of traffic coupled with the motorist knowlege that the reason for the congestion is the futile persuit of mediocraty is clearly going to increase deaths.
It would be nice if the reason was the reduction in traffic police, in the same way as it would be nice if the cause of the extra death could be linked to the increase in speed cameras. Unfortunately these causal links take ages to establish, then cannot be trusted anyway cos his tonyness has to spin them to us rather than just publishing the facts.
It would be nice if the reason was the reduction in traffic police, in the same way as it would be nice if the cause of the extra death could be linked to the increase in speed cameras. Unfortunately these causal links take ages to establish, then cannot be trusted anyway cos his tonyness has to spin them to us rather than just publishing the facts.
nonegreen said:
Very unlikely that the reduction in traffic police is increasing deaths. etc...
I have to disagree. The chances of getting caught by traffic are virtually non existent. Standards of driving are declining and prosecutions for any offence other than speeding are dropping.
Does this mean offences like due care are decreasing? I very much doubt it. People just aren't being caught anymore.
Unfortunately the current system of bleeding the motorist for cash at every opportunity has led to a decline in driving standards.
This is not helped by the large number of illegal immigrants where I live (we are a welcome zone or some bollox) who have bought their innimitable style of driving to our roads.
Innimitable as in "can't drive for toffee". We have a high Portugese contingent at the moment. Now if I am right, the road away from Faro airport is one of the most dangerous in Europe. Well, I can see why. I see appalling driving every day and I never see anyone to pick up on it.
It always used to be that whenever you drove like an arse, there was a copper there to catch you at it. Now it never happens. We need plod back in the car and getting rid of people who simply can't drive and we need it sooner rather than later.
BliarOut said:
Very unlikely that the reduction in traffic police is increasing deaths. etc...
I have to disagree. The chances of getting caught by traffic are virtually non existent. Standards of driving are declining and prosecutions for any offence other than speeding are dropping.
Combination of so-called traffic calming measures (which are usually ill-thought out and create excessive dangers by virtue of poor engineering and lay-out), over-reliance speed scams, non-existent trafpols, talivans on motorway bridges, incorrrect sitings of speed traps on safest stretches of roads as opposed to most hazardous bits ....all of this has led to current situation of twazaks causing death by undue/careless/dangerous/drugged/drunk/gasbagging on Handy - yet blame passed onto all drivers regardless - and speed per se given sole responsibility for the accident. Answer is not a speed camera nor calming measures which cause congestion .. obviously
BliarOut said:
Does this mean offences like due care are decreasing? I very much doubt it. People just aren't being caught anymore.
They are not decreasing - IG's mates cop them - but then - that quaint old fashioned way of policing....
Complete with acid lectures Funny how his patch has less incidents - yet prosecutes more for really dangerous behaviour .... How strange! BliarOut said:
Unfortunately the current system of bleeding the motorist for cash at every opportunity has led to a decline in driving standards.
Which is why you find scams in the nice part of towns as opposed to riff raff areas
Take a look see at the locations on the scammers' websites... quite enlightening where they claim these scams are needed - are they trying to "save" middle class lives only here BliarOut said:
This is not helped by the large number of illegal immigrants where I live (we are a welcome zone or some bollox) who have bought their innimitable style of driving to our roads.
Nah Liebchen - it is not politically correct to prosecute these people. They are likely to be uninsured, untaxed and kids like CJ get run over by them. And get sentenced to longer term for not having visa than for running over a child whilst not being entitled to drive the car in first place...
BliarOut said:
It always used to be that whenever you drove like an arse, there was a copper there to catch you at it. Now it never happens. We need plod back in the car and getting rid of people who simply can't drive and we need it sooner rather than later.
True - they are very rare sight indeed....
BliarOut said:
Very unlikely that the reduction in traffic police is increasing deaths. etc...
I have to disagree. The chances of getting caught by traffic are virtually non existent. Standards of driving are declining and prosecutions for any offence other than speeding are dropping.
Does this mean offences like due care are decreasing? I very much doubt it. People just aren't being caught anymore.
Unfortunately the current system of bleeding the motorist for cash at every opportunity has led to a decline in driving standards.
This is not helped by the large number of illegal immigrants where I live (we are a welcome zone or some bollox) who have bought their innimitable style of driving to our roads.
Innimitable as in "can't drive for toffee". We have a high Portugese contingent at the moment. Now if I am right, the road away from Faro airport is one of the most dangerous in Europe. Well, I can see why. I see appalling driving every day and I never see anyone to pick up on it.
It always used to be that whenever you drove like an arse, there was a copper there to catch you at it. Now it never happens. We need plod back in the car and getting rid of people who simply can't drive and we need it sooner rather than later.
Assuming everything you say is true, increasing the number of traffic police would not help. There is this perception that we can address all the issues that face us. We cannot, as some of them are outside our control. His Tonyness and an assortment of educated morons have been engaged in a war against the car for years and in reality they have had no success whatsoever. Ok if you adopt a Hitler type aproach and introduce a curfew and shoot to kill policy then in the short term perhaps bad driving could be reduced. Unfortunately when all our mothers got shot going to the shops, the following day there would be insurrection etc.
The policy that has a chance of success in reducing road deaths is one that takes account of what is achivable.
1. Improve road design continuously
2. Legislate to improve car design continuously
3. Improve and review driver training regularly.
Increasing traffic patrols is like looking for a needle in a haystack and as such is a total waste of time. It is only useful as an apeasement for those living in the 1950s still, who think the world has remained unchanged and a "clip round the ear sonny" from plod and the return of national service will cure all our ills. I for one am not paying tax to have the terminally bewildered appeased, they are yeaterdays people and will be dead soon anyway. I want something done to address the issues facing our society. The current crop of failed teachers and lawyers have demonstrated they are completely incapable of understanding anything as complex as road safety and we have extra deaths as a result. Roll on the end of this political system and lets move on.
nonegreen said:
The policy that has a chance of success in reducing road deaths is one that takes account of what is achivable.
1. Improve road design continuously
2. Legislate to improve car design continuously
3. Improve and review driver training regularly.
Increasing traffic patrols is like looking for a needle in a haystack and as such is a total waste of time. It is only useful as an apeasement for those living in the 1950s still, who think the world has remained unchanged and a "clip round the ear sonny" from plod and the return of national service will cure all our ills.
I agree Liebchen with 1-3, but would still say we need trafpols around just the same - not necessarily as enforcers of arbitrary speed limit - but just the presence and knowledge that we are more likely to see them around will help towards creating the safe ambience we need on the roads.
National service
My brothers and my male cousins loathed it... Is Switzerland any safer? You have undercurrent of very bitter chocolate - and Zurich, Luzern, Biele, Bern and Basel have some pockets which make your Reggie Kray era look civilised.. and Moss Side and Hulme (those dodgy areas I keep reading about in the Manchester local) look calm and tranquil by comparison .. So no - National Service does not really do that much to promote discipline amongst the riff-raff....
nonegreen said:
I for one am not paying tax to have the terminally bewildered appeased, they are yeaterdays people and will be dead soon anyway. I want something done to address the issues facing our society. The current crop of failed teachers and lawyers have demonstrated they are completely incapable of understanding anything as complex as road safety and we have extra deaths as a result. Roll on the end of this political system and lets move on.
Think you have summed up his Toryness and Darling Cornetto quite aptly here. They have no grasp of anything really - apart from spinning dogma and thinking they are hoodwinking us.
I have ouf course heard of it. Having said that...i'm kicking myself as I'm told there was a decent fly-on-wall documentary on BBC last night about Trafpol. Did anyone see it...was it any good?
I enjoyed the meal out with with and friends and the pub quiz afterwards though..I do have a bloody video...(kicking myself again)
Street
I enjoyed the meal out with with and friends and the pub quiz afterwards though..I do have a bloody video...(kicking myself again)
Street
Streetcop said:
Having said that...i'm kicking myself as I'm told there was a decent fly-on-wall documentary on BBC last night about Trafpol. Did anyone see it...was it any good?
I enjoyed the meal out with with and friends and the pub quiz afterwards though..I do have a bloody video...(kicking myself again)
Street
Hi Gary, I trust you are OK.
If you mean a programme called 'Fast & Dangerous' - which featured North Wales Police and the Central Motorway Unit - I have that recorded on a VHS tape.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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