Sale of goods act and rejecting goods.

[Mr Whippy]

Long story short.

Sister in law doesn't listen to advice.

Goes and buys car from cretin trader.

Obviously didn't check sod and all just bought it because it was "blue"

Days later trouble starting (in that cold snap), bad gear shift.

Raft of other issues upon me reviewing it, looks like a st heap in detail, but with some TLC would be nice enough, but not ideal with a trader who isn't interested.
Some subtle mods under the skin which she wouldn't have noticed either and hasn't been told about (tubular manifold and sports cat that looked suspect!)


Anyway, for some retarded reason she ended up paying for having some of these things fixed because the garage said it was up to her to do it... airbox > throttle body loose, so letting in un-metered air, was due a service (over-due by 40% or so by service book!), battery replaced etc etc...


So till this point I was kinda, bad mistake, but it's all details, just fix em and forget it, learn from your mistakes in future.

Tonight the car stopped, RAC recovered, cam belt has snapped



So she has had it since the 3rd of December, but due to non-starting issues with battery hasn't really been used much at all bar driving to the garage to complain and driving to this other place to have the 'winter service' and new battery fitted etc.


At this point I think it's due to be rejected but wondered what other people think?

I know people say 'easier said than done' when rejecting a car but surely this is a perfect example of rejection material?

I've advised a solicitor irrespective so hopefully that route will prove fruitful, but was curious if others knew of such situations usually resulting in being able to be rejected?!

Hmmmmm

Cheers

Dave

[Matt UK]

Certainly take it back - I think the garage have to be given the opportunity to make good first before rejection, but I'm not 100% sure.

SP&L forum is good at all this SOGA stuff if the right people turn up.

Good luck, hope she gets it sorted.

[poshboy]

how old is the car and what was the cost of purchase?

[Benrad]

Cambelt snapping is completely irrelevant. Unless it was miss described there's no come back I don't believe. If it's not mentioned in an ad or in person then it's her fault for not asking the question. Ianal but the guy you've instructed is so you can pay him to tell you this I'm afraid. Get it fixed and move on I think.

Full top end needed or is it non interference?

[Mr Whippy]

Ah sorry, should have gone in SP&L... if a mod fancies moving it feel free!

The car is a 2005 so fairly old, 62k miles, I think it was £3000... seemed about right on the price vs others of similar spec at traders.

Given they have already had a chance to make what was evidently bad good (non-starting in a morning), and made her do that at their recommended garage at her expense, and now it's failed fully just two and a bit weeks into ownership, says to me failure to make it 'right'


I guess the prudent advice is to just use a solicitor (lets see if advice is taken this time!). I'm sure in the long run it'll save money, time and stress and get the best result possible given the situation!



Thanks for the advice so far!

Dave

[Mr Whippy]

Benrad said:

Cambelt snapping is completely irrelevant. Unless it was miss described there's no come back I don't believe. If it's not mentioned in an ad or in person then it's her fault for not asking the question. Ianal but the guy you've instructed is so you can pay him to tell you this I'm afraid. Get it fixed and move on I think.

Full top end needed or is it non interference?

But surely you could stand there for days asking about every single on-car component, to be able to then reject later?

In any case I guess it is their duty to repair to a good standard which is ok?


So how do you stand with modifications? She wouldn't know as it looked like a GTi180 206 exhaust, but on inspection that model didn't have that exhaust, nor a tubular manifold and sports cat. No one said it was modified from standard. So as above, is that the buyers duty to ask?

Just concerned that if you don't know to ask about modifications (is that the buyers duty?) and they then can't get insurance at a reasonable price, is that just their fault?



Not having a dig, things are the way they are and she should be more savvy in my honest opinion.




But the logic doesn't add up for me.

Savvy, buy a good private car, save £££
Un-savvy, rely on a trader to be your safety net, but pay £££ to cover their costs AND their risk of the car having issues, even if it later turns out to be a good one they net that "insurance"

Un-savvy and buy private, save £££, but have enough to pay for a warranty to cover the car, and still undercut trader who have their cost overheads...

With that really rough man-maths logic in mind, why bother ever using a trader? Just paying for someone to take the balance of risks on your behalf while they sit in a shiny showroom


I can see why I don't bother with traders, especially after reading that Lexus water pump SOGA thread from a few months back!

Dave

[POORCARDEALER]

Mr Whippy said:

Benrad said:

Cambelt snapping is completely irrelevant. Unless it was miss described there's no come back I don't believe. If it's not mentioned in an ad or in person then it's her fault for not asking the question. Ianal but the guy you've instructed is so you can pay him to tell you this I'm afraid. Get it fixed and move on I think.

Full top end needed or is it non interference?

But surely you could stand there for days asking about every single on-car component, to be able to then reject later?

In any case I guess it is their duty to repair to a good standard which is ok?


So how do you stand with modifications? She wouldn't know as it looked like a GTi180 206 exhaust, but on inspection that model didn't have that exhaust, nor a tubular manifold and sports cat. No one said it was modified from standard. So as above, is that the buyers duty to ask?

Just concerned that if you don't know to ask about modifications (is that the buyers duty?) and they then can't get insurance at a reasonable price, is that just their fault?



Not having a dig, things are the way they are and she should be more savvy in my honest opinion.




But the logic doesn't add up for me.

Savvy, buy a good private car, save £££
Un-savvy, rely on a trader to be your safety net, but pay £££ to cover their costs AND their risk of the car having issues, even if it later turns out to be a good one they net that "insurance"

Un-savvy and buy private, save £££, but have enough to pay for a warranty to cover the car, and still undercut trader who have their cost overheads...

With that really rough man-maths logic in mind, why bother ever using a trader? Just paying for someone to take the balance of risks on your behalf while they sit in a shiny showroom


I can see why I don't bother with traders, especially after reading that Lexus water pump SOGA thread from a few months back!

Dave

You forgot the other choice. Go to a long established garage that prepares its cars properly, and if it goes go wrong they are there to take the stress and burden, probably a car to use while been repaired too.

Of course, the car won't be as cheap as some , but in the longrun might be better value.

I think you may have trouble ref the SOGA in this case, garage may argue that someone else has been tinkering/repairing the car, not them, and they may have caused the issue ( prob not I agree, but)

[Steffan]

Your sister in law has made an expensive mistake. There are some people it is very difficult to help. Sadly I fear that is the case here. It is extremely difficult to protect people from their own weaknesses. I appreciate you are trying to help but I think you are on an uphill struggle. At best.

Trading standards may be interested and civil action would probably result in a CJ against the trader. Given their approach to date I doubt any money will be forthcoming. I would like to be more positive but I really think this is a very difficult case. Good Luck.

[slippery]

The most I would ever spend on legals in a situation like this would be the cost of one letter. Beyond that, what's spent will get totally out of hand and will become disproportionate to the value of the car.

[Benrad]

The onus is on the buyer yes.

Basically either inspect it yourself, pay for an independent inspection, ask all the important questions or take the risk.

From a different angle will the trader sort it to save face? Asking nicely us much more likely to be successful in this case

[The Surveyor]

I thought any registered trader has to provide a minimum of 3 month cover on any cars being sold. May not cover a wear-and-tear item like a cam-belt in this case, but is the 3 month cover a myth?

The OP indicates that the car was sold with a service being over-due. Should a cam-belt change have been done at that service, say at 60k miles? It doesn't mention that the car was sold-as-seen so does the trader have a leg to stand on with any comeback? If he's sold a car which knowingly needs a service, which includes a cam-belt change, it's not wear-and-tear, its deceit.

Initial polite face-to-face approach, then get trading standards involved if he takes a teflon coated apporach.

[singlecoil]

Mr Whippy said:

With that really rough man-maths logic in mind, why bother ever using a trader?

I went through this myself in the last few weeks. The simple answer is that most of the cars available are in the hands of traders. The sort of thing that I was looking at the search results would start at say 150, then as soon as private only was ticked, it would drop to maybe 6.

So I ended up buying at a dealer (a very large one with a good many branches). Another plus point was that I could pay by debit card, which saved me having to firstly get a wad of cash, and secondly run the risk of walking about with that cash on me.

[BliarOut]

I thought most dealers did a precautionary cam belt change these days to prevent this sort of thing happening.

If it's a bona fide dealer the onus is on them to sort it in this case.

[Snowboy]

I would say that a total failure within 2 weeks on a £3k car has a fair chance of getting a full refund.

If it was a £300 car then it would be less likely.
But for 3k, from a dealer I think there mught be a SOGA sort of case there.

I think I'm right in saying that 3 months is a guideline for a mid price mid range reasonable car sort of thing.

[mjb1]

The Surveyor said:

I thought any registered trader has to provide a minimum of 3 month cover on any cars being sold. May not cover a wear-and-tear item like a cam-belt in this case, but is the 3 month cover a myth?

The OP indicates that the car was sold with a service being over-due. Should a cam-belt change have been done at that service, say at 60k miles? It doesn't mention that the car was sold-as-seen so does the trader have a leg to stand on with any comeback? If he's sold a car which knowingly needs a service, which includes a cam-belt change, it's not wear-and-tear, its deceit.

Initial polite face-to-face approach, then get trading standards involved if he takes a teflon coated apporach.

Yes, it's a myth.
While a good car dealer would service every vehicle that needs it as part of their prep, they don't have to. They could sell it with without it ever having had a service, and no oil in it if they wanted to. As long as they don't lie about it, they're not doing anything wrong.

I don't think you've got any comeback on a 5 year old car snapping a cam belt, unless it'd just been changed by the dealer and they didn't do the job right.

[Matt UK]

BliarOut said:

I thought most dealers did a precautionary cam belt change these days to prevent this sort of thing happening.

If it's a bona fide dealer the onus is on them to sort it in this case.

Maybe on a £30k car, but not on a £3k car they won't... You're lucky if it's had a valet - most dealers at this range want to valet for collection when a deal is done...

[BliarOut]

Matt UK said:

BliarOut said:

I thought most dealers did a precautionary cam belt change these days to prevent this sort of thing happening.

If it's a bona fide dealer the onus is on them to sort it in this case.

Maybe on a £30k car, but not on a £3k car they won't... You're lucky if it's had a valet - most dealers at this range want to valet for collection when a deal is done...

Strange you should pick £3k, the last time I looked over a dealer purchase for someone it was for £3K and they changed the cambelt as a precaution

[Matt UK]

BliarOut said:

Matt UK said:

BliarOut said:

I thought most dealers did a precautionary cam belt change these days to prevent this sort of thing happening.

If it's a bona fide dealer the onus is on them to sort it in this case.

Maybe on a £30k car, but not on a £3k car they won't... You're lucky if it's had a valet - most dealers at this range want to valet for collection when a deal is done...

Strange you should pick £3k, the last time I looked over a dealer purchase for someone it was for £3K and they changed the cambelt as a precaution

You've found a good dealer, consider yourself lucky

[Snowboy]

BliarOut said:

Strange you should pick £3k, the last time I looked over a dealer purchase for someone it was for £3K and they changed the cambelt as a precaution

On some cars the belt can be changed in half an hour.
On othets it takes three.

Some dealers have a yts mechanic who needs to practice, some have to pay an external mechanic.

Some dealers lie about doing the belt.(allegedly)

It's all a bit of a lottery really.

[Fastpedeller]

[quote=Mr Whippy]Long story short.

Sister in law doesn't listen to advice.

Goes and buys car from cretin trader.

Obviously didn't check sod and all just bought it because it was "blue"



Feel sorry for her (and you!)
It's unfortunate, but as much as you try and help.......
2 instances of this sort of thing from my past.


1. Went to look at an MGB roadster a friend-of-a-friend had put a deposit on. He was all excited etc, when we got there he said "it's really good, got a new front bumper, oil cooler, and rad" you can possibly guess the rest? One look under revealed it was bent in the middle as a result of the recent frontal collision. He was not happy with me when I advised the rest of his money would be only the beginning - on the plus side he got the deposit back from the vendor (from a private house with 6 cars lined up for sale outside) I hope he learnt a useful lesson, but suspect he blamed me forever for his loss of a gem sports car.
2. Friend had bust his big ends on his Metro, asked me for help finding another car. Found him a nice private genuine Escort, which he then used for the next 2 years without changing the oil - result 2nd broken engine His reaction - "I knew I should have bought from a dealer".

I let people find their own cars now, and don't advise them!