Discussion
Just before I start on the next topic I want to comment on the fact that in the vast majority of mail I'm receiving for the last post there is a clear and deep concern over the possibility of reprisals by any agencies of the Government who may feel they're being threatened.
This should be considered alongside the fact that even although there are numerous Police Officers on this site and I have specifically invited them to comment on the content, not one single officer has done so.
This gives definite cause for concern, but makes me all the more determined that we succeed; perhaps an officer would care to allay our fears? (Street, Gone, DVD, etc?)
I will state here and now that what I am about to propose threatens no one, but will require considerable flexibility by the Government and enforcement communities, but does not require them to be "overthrown" or any other brutally radical confrontation that could be construed as threatening.
It follows therefore that any interference by any agency in future activities of a totally legitimate body of people should be viewed as criminal and treated as such.
This should be considered alongside the fact that even although there are numerous Police Officers on this site and I have specifically invited them to comment on the content, not one single officer has done so.
This gives definite cause for concern, but makes me all the more determined that we succeed; perhaps an officer would care to allay our fears? (Street, Gone, DVD, etc?)
I will state here and now that what I am about to propose threatens no one, but will require considerable flexibility by the Government and enforcement communities, but does not require them to be "overthrown" or any other brutally radical confrontation that could be construed as threatening.
It follows therefore that any interference by any agency in future activities of a totally legitimate body of people should be viewed as criminal and treated as such.
My deep concerns are very real.....without going into the pros and cons of foxhunting, I find the way this bunch of useless scumbags of a labour government are infringing our basic rights by dictating to us what we can and cannot do, and then railroading it through parliament before they get a real kicking at the next election (probably under the premise that it wouldn't be revoked if they don't win)is absolutely disgusting. Bunch of totally undemocratic hooligans......the labour scum that is....
It seems nowadays that a one-eyed, greenskinned, purple-haired, lesbian, single mother octopus from Mars gets more of a hearing with this bunch of spinners than does "Middle England"
Time for a revolution methinks!!!
It seems nowadays that a one-eyed, greenskinned, purple-haired, lesbian, single mother octopus from Mars gets more of a hearing with this bunch of spinners than does "Middle England"
Time for a revolution methinks!!!
Well from my neck of the woods and reporting what I hear.
The feeling is that the British people are slow to rouse and maybe hand wringingly apathetic but when backs are against the wall, watch out anyone who is seen to be a threat.
As I say the feeling locally is that the Government has in many ways abused its powers and is giving little return for the taxes we pay.
Even the most politically uninterested people I know are somewhat incredulous that the Government is spending valuable energy and using law which is intended to be used in times of National crisis to deal with an issue that is basically starting a class war. You can define class how you wish, working vs gentry, townie vs countryfolk, etc etc.
The war on the private motorist is seen as just another class war. We are not just talking about such as speed cameras but extreme dissatisfaction with the perpetuation of the lowest common denominator factor.
As I say not just keen drivers but Middle England.
You can extend those rumblings to almost any other subject involving the current administration you wish to mention, pensions, education at all levels; do I need to go on?
There is a general feeling that however dangerous we think Blair and Brown are, Blunkett is in fact the most dangerous in addition to being the worst Home Secretary in history. On the other hand he is helped in his stance by the complete inability to deal with elements in society that Middle England find unnaceptable, eg travellers, the chav culture, career criminals, and yes, dare I say it, asylum seekers who in some cases are clearly using and abusing the hospitality of the UK.
What makes it worse is the pandering to the general unwillingness to take blame / responsibility in society. The worst culprit in this being members of the Government themselves.
There is still a significant element in society who have to wake up and smell the coffee, but when they do it will be a powder keg.
Remember I'm just reporting what I hear on the ground, not my own rantings.
Whatever Iolaire is planning has in my opinion to be 100% legal, cast iron. That was why the fuel blockades were so successful, in that the cause had public support and the "rent a mob" element took no part. Of course you have to be preapred for "emergency" changes in the law, the Govt spin machine going flat out in fifth (haha) and you have to have resources and facts to hit the lies. Remember in the fuel blockade the outright lies told by Milburn as just one example.
Enough for now.
FiF
The feeling is that the British people are slow to rouse and maybe hand wringingly apathetic but when backs are against the wall, watch out anyone who is seen to be a threat.
As I say the feeling locally is that the Government has in many ways abused its powers and is giving little return for the taxes we pay.
Even the most politically uninterested people I know are somewhat incredulous that the Government is spending valuable energy and using law which is intended to be used in times of National crisis to deal with an issue that is basically starting a class war. You can define class how you wish, working vs gentry, townie vs countryfolk, etc etc.
The war on the private motorist is seen as just another class war. We are not just talking about such as speed cameras but extreme dissatisfaction with the perpetuation of the lowest common denominator factor.
As I say not just keen drivers but Middle England.
You can extend those rumblings to almost any other subject involving the current administration you wish to mention, pensions, education at all levels; do I need to go on?
There is a general feeling that however dangerous we think Blair and Brown are, Blunkett is in fact the most dangerous in addition to being the worst Home Secretary in history. On the other hand he is helped in his stance by the complete inability to deal with elements in society that Middle England find unnaceptable, eg travellers, the chav culture, career criminals, and yes, dare I say it, asylum seekers who in some cases are clearly using and abusing the hospitality of the UK.
What makes it worse is the pandering to the general unwillingness to take blame / responsibility in society. The worst culprit in this being members of the Government themselves.
There is still a significant element in society who have to wake up and smell the coffee, but when they do it will be a powder keg.
Remember I'm just reporting what I hear on the ground, not my own rantings.
Whatever Iolaire is planning has in my opinion to be 100% legal, cast iron. That was why the fuel blockades were so successful, in that the cause had public support and the "rent a mob" element took no part. Of course you have to be preapred for "emergency" changes in the law, the Govt spin machine going flat out in fifth (haha) and you have to have resources and facts to hit the lies. Remember in the fuel blockade the outright lies told by Milburn as just one example.
Enough for now.
FiF
I'd agree with that - the recent "investigation" into the Scottish Parliament overspend (like 1000%) emds up with
"it was no-ones fault"
eh? Who was the Project manager, the Project Director, the finance controller, the architect, the builder - either or any of these peeps holds the can ffs.
Government is newspeak for waste and prolific spending.
Hang em all!!!
"it was no-ones fault"
eh? Who was the Project manager, the Project Director, the finance controller, the architect, the builder - either or any of these peeps holds the can ffs.
Government is newspeak for waste and prolific spending.
Hang em all!!!
Flat in Fifth said:Absolutely.
There is a general feeling that however dangerous we think Blair and Brown are, Blunkett is in fact the most dangerous in addition to being the worst Home Secretary in history. On the other hand he is helped in his stance by the complete inability to deal with elements in society that Middle England find unnaceptable, eg travellers, the chav culture, career criminals, and yes, dare I say it, asylum seekers who in some cases are clearly using and abusing the hospitality of the UK
At least Maggie had the balls
to stand up to unions etc ( but she got too big for her boots in the end ). The Bliar government are so wishy washy and politically correct that the wont stand up and make the unpopular decisions. It seems that every minority group "has their rights" etc etc and Bliar wont stand up to them. If the plane full of asylum seekers at Stanstead had been dealt with swiftly and severely ( I mean, they hijacked a plane FFS,) and been either send home or banged up ( not quite sure what fair punishment would have been ) then the huge rush of "asylum seekers" eg would perhaps not have happened. This country is soft with people from outside and hard on those already living here. / duck behind furniture mode on
Dibble said:
I've obviously missed Iolaire's original post, so if someone can enlighten me, I'll try and post my thoughts if they're at all relevant to the subject.
Dibble, it's a series of posts titled Insurrection part 1,... part 2.
oh btw forgot to mail you direct let you know how I got on in your neck of woods. Great, many thanks for help. Your preferred option worked fine thanks, though reckon the onshore storm kept roads fairly quiet on the day in question.
Cheers,
FiF
PS
Dibble said:
Failing that, after seeing the news last night, I'll be checking my public order kit when I get back to work tomorrow night...
Fluff mode
Not arffff!
/Fluff mode
Though you needed that on a Sat night in Talbot square as standard !!
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Thursday 16th September 09:54
Flat in Fifth, couldn't agree more!! there is a deep underswell of real resentment building and I wouldn't want to see the results if Britons get really peed-off.
The minor Wat Tyler kerfuffle would have little in comparison. I've even heard people wanting to remove these wasters by whatever means possible (you can think what I mean) and I'll be perfectly honest I was cheering when those 5 yesterday broke into parliament and gave these useless onanists an earfull.
Remebering of course the last time it happened a government fell and a King was executed...perhaps it'll be a useless PC PM and his cronies who'll get hung, drawn and quartered on Parliament square this time!?!?! One may hope!!!
The minor Wat Tyler kerfuffle would have little in comparison. I've even heard people wanting to remove these wasters by whatever means possible (you can think what I mean) and I'll be perfectly honest I was cheering when those 5 yesterday broke into parliament and gave these useless onanists an earfull.
Remebering of course the last time it happened a government fell and a King was executed...perhaps it'll be a useless PC PM and his cronies who'll get hung, drawn and quartered on Parliament square this time!?!?! One may hope!!!
My faith is restored! It took you a while but at least there is now a response. It is very important to the success of anything like this that all you BiBs out there are involved.
We have had a significant 24 hours so here's a few thoughts.
Unlike virtually every other country in Europe, Britain has never had a revolution, never had a collective emotional and spiritual "clear out", and I truly believe that is one of the root causes of our problems. We don't know how to deal with an out of control, boorish Government because we have never really tried it, fear of the unknown.
By the way Street, did you mean Britain when you said England, in other words being typically English!! or did you specifically mean England, because there are significant cultural differences between the members of the United Kingdom that relate to how we protest and for what reason.
But I don't think the time has ever been more ripe than now, last night's little display in Parliament utterly reinforces this, combined with all the demonstrations all over the country that quite clearly are not going away. Did you also notice how many people involved in this actually stated on live television that they are prepared to break the law if neccessary.
Would any of you agree that the issue here is actually not about hunting? I cannot for the life of me see the pleasure in watching a trained pack of dogs ripping a fox to pieces, but if you assume that the way to change this sort of social behaviour is to criminalise it, then your assumption is totally ill-founded.
This issue is about the Government yet again using its power in a manner that is unacceptable, and it's actions have created yet another band of people quite determined that they will not be treated in this manner; another section of the community that feels alienated, misrepresented and shabbily treated by it's own Government.
FiF talked about return for taxes paid and the dangers of David Blunkett.
Just so there is absolutely no illusion about this, and so that you realise just how bad it is, here is a wee taster about return for taxes.
These are figures from 2000 so the amounts will be even greater now.
For every £50 of petrol you put in your tank £43 is tax. I repeat FORTY THREE POUNDS IS TAX!!
I can go for a drive to the coast and watch the oil being pumped out of the North Sea. We are the only oil producing nation that taxes it's OWN people on fuel at a rate that is totally obscene.
But the worst aspect is that diesel is even more expensive than petrol, utter madness!! Almost all our heavy transport system runs on diesel, that's why we have such high retail prices.
In 2000 the Government pulled in £38 BILLION pounds in petrol duty alone.
If you are a trucker your artic will average 7MPG and you will do at least 100,000 miles a year. Think about that fule bill then multiply it by every artic in the country.
Then you have to road tax it. It will cost you £1850 a year for your tractor unit and a further £230 trailer duty. Are you starting to get the picture?
Then of course we have the Fixed Penalty revenue, I'm not even going to comment on that just now, because most of you know a great deal about it anyway from this site.
As far as David Blunkett's concerned, I hate to say this but at his level of Government and in particular the post he holds, I am convinced his handicap prevents him from properly attuning himself to the needs of the community; I mean he MUST miss so much, so many relevant factors. Sad but true, and he therefore has to be much more reliant on advisors than a fully sighted person would. The question then follows, how reliable or ethical are his advisers?
Yes FiF, what I'm planning is 100% legal, but again have no illusion about the Government. Will we be able to keep it legal if they just simply criminalise anything we do? i.e. you drive to work for five years down the same route with absolute safety at 55 MPH down a dual carriageway every morning. They change the limit to thirty and overnight you're a criminal.
Mondeoman, I am not even going to start about the Scottish Parliament; there are few things that make me ashamed to be Scots, but that I'm afraid is one if them. It is an absolutely classic case of Government and management at it's attrocious worst!!
If any of you want to read my posts just click on my name and they are all listed there. I would appreciate as much input as possible, and feel free to e-mail me direct as well.
I'm delighted to say I got an e-mail from Paul Smith last night and we are going to get our heads together on these issues, the more united we are, the more powerful the effect of representation is.
We have had a significant 24 hours so here's a few thoughts.
Unlike virtually every other country in Europe, Britain has never had a revolution, never had a collective emotional and spiritual "clear out", and I truly believe that is one of the root causes of our problems. We don't know how to deal with an out of control, boorish Government because we have never really tried it, fear of the unknown.
By the way Street, did you mean Britain when you said England, in other words being typically English!! or did you specifically mean England, because there are significant cultural differences between the members of the United Kingdom that relate to how we protest and for what reason.
But I don't think the time has ever been more ripe than now, last night's little display in Parliament utterly reinforces this, combined with all the demonstrations all over the country that quite clearly are not going away. Did you also notice how many people involved in this actually stated on live television that they are prepared to break the law if neccessary.
Would any of you agree that the issue here is actually not about hunting? I cannot for the life of me see the pleasure in watching a trained pack of dogs ripping a fox to pieces, but if you assume that the way to change this sort of social behaviour is to criminalise it, then your assumption is totally ill-founded.
This issue is about the Government yet again using its power in a manner that is unacceptable, and it's actions have created yet another band of people quite determined that they will not be treated in this manner; another section of the community that feels alienated, misrepresented and shabbily treated by it's own Government.
FiF talked about return for taxes paid and the dangers of David Blunkett.
Just so there is absolutely no illusion about this, and so that you realise just how bad it is, here is a wee taster about return for taxes.
These are figures from 2000 so the amounts will be even greater now.
For every £50 of petrol you put in your tank £43 is tax. I repeat FORTY THREE POUNDS IS TAX!!
I can go for a drive to the coast and watch the oil being pumped out of the North Sea. We are the only oil producing nation that taxes it's OWN people on fuel at a rate that is totally obscene.
But the worst aspect is that diesel is even more expensive than petrol, utter madness!! Almost all our heavy transport system runs on diesel, that's why we have such high retail prices.
In 2000 the Government pulled in £38 BILLION pounds in petrol duty alone.
If you are a trucker your artic will average 7MPG and you will do at least 100,000 miles a year. Think about that fule bill then multiply it by every artic in the country.
Then you have to road tax it. It will cost you £1850 a year for your tractor unit and a further £230 trailer duty. Are you starting to get the picture?
Then of course we have the Fixed Penalty revenue, I'm not even going to comment on that just now, because most of you know a great deal about it anyway from this site.
As far as David Blunkett's concerned, I hate to say this but at his level of Government and in particular the post he holds, I am convinced his handicap prevents him from properly attuning himself to the needs of the community; I mean he MUST miss so much, so many relevant factors. Sad but true, and he therefore has to be much more reliant on advisors than a fully sighted person would. The question then follows, how reliable or ethical are his advisers?
Yes FiF, what I'm planning is 100% legal, but again have no illusion about the Government. Will we be able to keep it legal if they just simply criminalise anything we do? i.e. you drive to work for five years down the same route with absolute safety at 55 MPH down a dual carriageway every morning. They change the limit to thirty and overnight you're a criminal.
Mondeoman, I am not even going to start about the Scottish Parliament; there are few things that make me ashamed to be Scots, but that I'm afraid is one if them. It is an absolutely classic case of Government and management at it's attrocious worst!!
If any of you want to read my posts just click on my name and they are all listed there. I would appreciate as much input as possible, and feel free to e-mail me direct as well.
I'm delighted to say I got an e-mail from Paul Smith last night and we are going to get our heads together on these issues, the more united we are, the more powerful the effect of representation is.
IOLAIRE said:
Unlike virtually every other country in Europe, Britain has never had a revolution, never had a collective emotional and spiritual "clear out", and I truly believe that is one of the root causes of our problems. We don't know how to deal with an out of control, boorish Government because we have never really tried it, fear of the unknown.
I have thought this for years. We keep taking it and taking it. The pot has been simmering for years but is now close to boiling!!
IOLAIRE said:
By the way Street, did you mean Britain when you said England, in other words being typically English!! or did you specifically mean England, because there are significant cultural differences between the members of the United Kingdom that relate to how we protest and for what reason.
This country is so full of many different ethnic and social groups, and they all want their say and rights. But who would they be fighting for if there was a war?
IOLAIRE said:
But I don't think the time has ever been more ripe than now, last night's little display in Parliament utterly reinforces this, combined with all the demonstrations all over the country that quite clearly are not going away.
Agreed. We cant go on taking any sh*t the government dishes out.
IOLAIRE said:
Did you also notice how many people involved in this actually stated on live television that they are prepared to break the law if neccessary.
Just like the poll tax. We only respond violently when we have well and truly had enough
IOLAIRE said:
Would any of you agree that the issue here is actually not about hunting? I cannot for the life of me see the pleasure in watching a trained pack of dogs ripping a fox to pieces,
Ditto
IOLAIRE said:
but if you assume that the way to change this sort of social behaviour is to criminalise it, then your assumption is totally ill-founded.
This issue is about the Government yet again using its power in a manner that is unacceptable, and it's actions have created yet another band of people quite determined that they will not be treated in this manner; another section of the community that feels alienated, misrepresented and shabbily treated by it's own Government.
Absolutely
IOLAIRE said:
FiF talked about return for taxes paid and the dangers of David Blunkett.
Just so there is absolutely no illusion about this, and so that you realise just how bad it is, here is a wee taster about return for taxes.
These are figures from 2000 so the amounts will be even greater now.
For every £50 of petrol you put in your tank £43 is tax. I repeat FORTY THREE POUNDS IS TAX!!
IOLAIRE, this is my ultimate wind up
IOLAIRE said:
I can go for a drive to the coast and watch the oil being pumped out of the North Sea. We are the only oil producing nation that taxes it's OWN people on fuel at a rate that is totally obscene.
But the worst aspect is that diesel is even more expensive than petrol, utter madness!! Almost all our heavy transport system runs on diesel, that's why we have such high retail prices.
In 2000 the Government pulled in £38 BILLION pounds in petrol duty alone.
Yeah, and how much has been ploughed back into road safety/improvement. What about public transport. They have been collecting these billions for years; you would think that some of it could be used to improve trains!! for example.
IOLAIRE said:
As far as David Blunkett's concerned, I hate to say this but at his level of Government and in particular the post he holds, I am convinced his handicap prevents him from properly attuning himself to the needs of the community; I mean he MUST miss so much, so many relevant factors.
FFS I was only saying this to my missus yesterday.
Its like comparing talking to someone via videolink ( or phone )vs face to face. You get a different "feeling" etc when speaking face to face
IOLAIRE said:
I'm delighted to say I got an e-mail from Paul Smith last night and we are going to get our heads together on these issues, the more united we are, the more powerful the effect of representation is.
I applaud you IOLAIRE for what you are trying to do. Paul is an excellent ambassador for the motorist, and hes got the balls to face the media and his research is frankly awesome.
Streetcop said:
Failing that, after seeing the news last night, I'll be checking my public order kit when I get back to work tomorrow night...
Street
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3661332.stm
Hunt demo complaints investigated
A number of people were hurt and 15 arrested during the protest Claims of police misconduct during a pro-hunting demonstration are being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Following allegations made to the media, official complaints had now been made, said the IPPC.
Police are still questioning 13 hunt supporters after Wednesday's violent clashes outside Parliament.
Fifteen people were initially arrested but two, held for breach of the peace, have been released without charge.
Fireworks thrown
Thousands of fox hunting supporters descended on London in an attempt to dissuade MPs from backing a ban.
The arrested demonstrators are being questioned at a south London police station.
On Thursday the IPCC said the inquiry into allegations against the police would be overseen by its deputy chair John Wadham.
IPCC chairman Nick Hardwick said: "Allegations were made to the media that members of the public had been assaulted. Official complaints have also now been made.
"Both the protesters and police officers can have confidence that our investigation will be an impartial, timely and proportionate search for the truth."
The IPCC inquiry will not look at police operational decisions nor the breach of security in the House of Commons chamber.
A further eight people are in custody after five protesters burst into the Commons chamber while MPs debated the Bill on Wednesday.
Those held are suspected of offences including violent disorder, breach of the peace, affray and using threatening words or behaviour.
MPs went on to back a ban on hunting in England and Wales by 339 to 155 votes.
Organisers said that 20,000 protesters had gathered in Parliament Square while the police estimated the figure at between 8,000 and 10,000.
The arrests came after fireworks, plastic bottles and placards were thrown at uniformed officers blocking entry to the Houses of Parliament.
Unconscious
Scotland Yard said a small section of the crowd had tried to break through the police cordon but it was "in the main...a peaceful demonstration".
But some protesters accused the police of being heavy-handed as they used batons to control the crowds.
Thomas Brown, a 34-year-old steel erector from Leeds, was left bleeding from the head and neck after the rally.
Thomas Fillery, 19, from Buckinghamshire, was knocked unconscious as riot police ran through the crowd, the teenager's friends claimed.
And Simon Kenney, a professional huntsman from Durham, also with a head wound, said: "I just want to tell Tony Blair there will be much more trouble like this if they ban hunting."
Tony Blair's official spokesman said the prime minister recognised there were strong feelings on all sides of the debate.
A Scotland Yard spokesman defended police against allegations they were heavy-handed.
"They are made at every demonstration we police. We try to police demonstrations to the best of our ability to keep them peaceful and protect the people involved."
Mike Hobday, of the League Against Cruel Sports, said: "These appalling scenes show that the Countryside Alliance have no respect for the police, no respect for law and order and no respect for parliamentary democracy." (pot .. kettle ..black anyone?)
A Countryside Alliance spokeswoman said the rally involved "20,000 law-abiding protesters" but condemned the Commons intruders.
Care to comment guys? Was yesterday a use of reasonable force?
IMHO the Police were pretty heavy-handed (I saw only the BBC and Sky coverage).....IMHO no need..but I wasn't there and didn't see it all....
but how about the cynicism of the League against Cruel Sports spokesperson, aren't they the ones who burn peoples homes, put bombs in cars etc (laboratory animal protestors)..... and they talk about someone lashing out at police who've just cracked their skull, two-faced cynical twats!!!!!
but how about the cynicism of the League against Cruel Sports spokesperson, aren't they the ones who burn peoples homes, put bombs in cars etc (laboratory animal protestors)..... and they talk about someone lashing out at police who've just cracked their skull, two-faced cynical twats!!!!!
The Wiz said:
Care to comment guys? Was yesterday a use of reasonable force?
Short answer - I don't know. I wasn't there. I only saw some pictures on BBC and Channel 4 news. News isn't made by people saying, "Yes, well, actually I was out of order for lobbing fireworks at the Police, so fair dos to them if I get batoned."
Having been in the thick of "proper" rioting (Burnley), getting stones, batteries and petrol bombs thrown at me, I can tell you that (a) it's bloody frightening, and (b) it's very easy to lose sight of the "big picture".
If you have someone running at you, a split second decision has to be made. I saw people at the rally, with plenty of space in front of them (ie not crushed against barriers) pulling the barriers down, and throwing kicks and punches at Police officers who were not dressed in public order uniform. The officers looked like they were retaliating to what they were faced with.
I've seen video footage (taken by Police evidence gatherers) of me at the Burnley riots whacking plenty of people with my baton, and in the cold light of day, several months later, I can see how that IN ISOLATION would look out of order. I can say unequivocally, that at the time, it was not. As soon as the rioters dispersed, they stopped getting batoned (I accept last night might have been slightly different, but I am trying to be as honest as possible with the facts I have available).
I support people's right to protest or strike (many rights which we as Police officers do not have), but if people are going to try and have a go at the Police in a public order situation, they may well find that they get short shrift.
After the inner city riots of the 80s, public order policing changed forever. It is NEVER going to return to what it was, with loads of warnings being given to disperse.
There are more options available to the Police now than ever before, including the use of public order teams, horses, dogs, baton rounds and CS. The public must be aware of this, and must accept some responsibility if things deteriorate because of their actions, and they end up getting hurt as a result. Or perhaps we should let protesters have three free shots at the Police before they’re allowed to react? In any case, the pre-emptive use of force by the Police is till legal where it is justified.
The Police have been, and always will be, seen as the "power" of the "State", no matter who is in power in Government. Unfortunately, we often take the brunt of the public's dissatisfaction with those in power.
That said, it is possible that some officers may have gone too far. I don't know, I wasn't there.
Dibble said:
Having been in the thick of "proper" rioting (Burnley), getting stones, batteries and petrol bombs thrown at me, I can tell you that (a) it's bloody frightening, and (b) it's very easy to lose sight of the "big picture".
If you have someone running at you, a split second decision has to be made. I saw people at the rally, with plenty of space in front of them (ie not crushed against barriers) pulling the barriers down, and throwing kicks and punches at Police officers who were not dressed in public order uniform. The officers looked like they were retaliating to what they were faced with.
I've seen video footage (taken by Police evidence gatherers) of me at the Burnley riots whacking plenty of people with my baton, and in the cold light of day, several months later, I can see how that IN ISOLATION would look out of order. I can say unequivocally, that at the time, it was not. As soon as the rioters dispersed, they stopped getting batoned (I accept last night might have been slightly different, but I am trying to be as honest as possible with the facts I have available).
You may be surprised, but I agree with you Dibble.
It is so easy to sit in a room, in a calm environment, dissecting video footage. Quite another to actually be there and have to make a split second decision. As you say, we were not there, and some officers MAY have overreacted, but if I were BiB and had a rowdy large crowd coming at me, I would probably use my baton as well. I have no problem with this, because I feel that if I am there, and demonstrating, there is a chance that it will get out of hand and thus I run the risk of getting hurt by the Police. Excessive force would be the Police using batons without provocation.
>> Edited by blademan on Thursday 16th September 16:32
blademan said:
You may be surprised, but I agree with you Dibble.
It is so easy to sit in a room, in a calm environment, dissecting video footage. Quite another to actually be there and have to make a split second decision. As you say, we were not there, and some officers MAY have overreacted, but if I were BiB and had a rowdy large crowd coming at me, I would probably use my baton as well. I have no problem with this, because I feel that if I am there, and demonstrating, there is a chance that it will get out of hand and thus I run the risk of getting hurt by the Police. Excessive force would be the Police using batons without provocation.
I was watching it live on Sky throughout the day. I saw at least two Policemen being punched or pushed in the face, with overhead helicopter shots of a small section of the crowd running up and down Police lines battering them.
Funnily enough, none of these scenes were on the news reports later. Instead i saw the same shot again and again of a blonde haired quite tall PC hitting several people who were in the crowd. They had conveniently cut out what i had seen earlier, namely that same PC being pulled into the crowd by his baton because the cord was wrapped round his wrist. He had actually been holding the baton out trying to create a breathing space, and had not been threatening anyone with it at that point.
Any other country in the world would have had water cannon and dogs set on the crowd. I'm not saying i want that here, i hope we never do see that in this country, but i think our Police have their hands tied massively when dealing with hostile wolf-packs like those in Parliament Square yesterday. It's such a shame that 99.9% of that crowd were there peacefully exercising their democratic rights, yet as usual a small band of thugs makes the headlines. And what thanks do the Police get for trying to keep a lid on things?
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