Business implications of repression
Discussion
Morning all - last night I was reading a two week old copy of the "Driving" section of the Sunday Times, and came upon a letter that appealed to me enough that I've gone to the effort of re-typing it for the forum.
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MY SPEEDY EXIT: While visiting the UK in recent weeks my co-director and I were in the Malvern area several times, planning a business venture that will employ some 60-80 people. Between us we have held driving licences for over a century, and in that period only one of us has ever received a speeding fine, and that was 20 years ago.
But during the three weeks that we were here on business we were given three speeding offences between us. These were for doing 36, 36 and 37 mph respectively in a 30 mph zone. There is no doubt that we were guilty.
We have no grounds whatsoever for complaint, and make none. The three fines were “business expenses”, so it was no skin off our noses. However, there is more to it than this.
Where measures so severe are in place, and they repeatedly trap what most might consider to be “good” drivers who match their driving to the conditions rather than the rules, there are implications for businesses. We have consequently decided to establish our business in the southeast of England instead.
Dick Blaid
Paphos, Cyprus
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This made me wonder if it those areas that really go over the top on the speeding scamship will ultimately have such a negative effect on local businesses that they encourage delocalisation. This might even make figures in authority at a regional level realise that the loss in local employment and company taxes far outweighs the receipts from scamming the motorists. Maybe it's just a dream, but the letter reproduced above gave me some hope.
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MY SPEEDY EXIT: While visiting the UK in recent weeks my co-director and I were in the Malvern area several times, planning a business venture that will employ some 60-80 people. Between us we have held driving licences for over a century, and in that period only one of us has ever received a speeding fine, and that was 20 years ago.
But during the three weeks that we were here on business we were given three speeding offences between us. These were for doing 36, 36 and 37 mph respectively in a 30 mph zone. There is no doubt that we were guilty.
We have no grounds whatsoever for complaint, and make none. The three fines were “business expenses”, so it was no skin off our noses. However, there is more to it than this.
Where measures so severe are in place, and they repeatedly trap what most might consider to be “good” drivers who match their driving to the conditions rather than the rules, there are implications for businesses. We have consequently decided to establish our business in the southeast of England instead.
Dick Blaid
Paphos, Cyprus
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This made me wonder if it those areas that really go over the top on the speeding scamship will ultimately have such a negative effect on local businesses that they encourage delocalisation. This might even make figures in authority at a regional level realise that the loss in local employment and company taxes far outweighs the receipts from scamming the motorists. Maybe it's just a dream, but the letter reproduced above gave me some hope.
I guess the proof is there in the letter. Blokey says he's shoving his business somewhere else because of the tickets. Must say it seems like a bizarrre reason to choose the location of a business. You might think property cost, availability of staff, location of customers might be a bit more important than a few speeding tickets. Still, if he doesn't want to have all of Malvern's amenities on his door step (the Splash swinmming pool, the peanut-shaped Barnard's Green roundabout, fab shopping at Bray's, a choice of two railway stations (no trains of course), and the opportunity to gaze on the water feature on Belle Vue terrace) then he can relocate his company up his arse. Not that I am biased.
I, too, am involved in establishing a new venture in which I shall be a director/consultant. The initial investment capital is due this week.
We have been looking at locations for this operation which will, potentially, employ up to 40 people after 2 years, if all goes to plan.
The Welsh Dev't Agency were quite helpful, but we will not go to North Wales as we don't want the risk of our sales engineers and senior staff losing their licences in 'Brunstromia'. Instead we are looking at the North-East of England as the skills there are OK as is the dev't grant situation and they are not so 'camera obsessed'.
It is bocoming a factor in company location.
We have been looking at locations for this operation which will, potentially, employ up to 40 people after 2 years, if all goes to plan.
The Welsh Dev't Agency were quite helpful, but we will not go to North Wales as we don't want the risk of our sales engineers and senior staff losing their licences in 'Brunstromia'. Instead we are looking at the North-East of England as the skills there are OK as is the dev't grant situation and they are not so 'camera obsessed'.
It is bocoming a factor in company location.
Cooperman said:
I, too, am involved in establishing a new venture in which I shall be a director/consultant. The initial investment capital is due this week.
We have been looking at locations for this operation which will, potentially, employ up to 40 people after 2 years, if all goes to plan.
The Welsh Dev't Agency were quite helpful, but we will not go to North Wales as we don't want the risk of our sales engineers and senior staff losing their licences in 'Brunstromia'. Instead we are looking at the North-East of England as the skills there are OK as is the dev't grant situation and they are not so 'camera obsessed'.
It is bocoming a factor in company location.
Interesting - so it's not just hot air. Unless they have much more generous development grants than other regions, the more repressive regimes should actually start to suffer higher unemployment and reduced receipts from local business after a time.
What we need is more local authority over speed limits, so some part of the UK can do what they did in Montana - certain roads without speed limits...
Edited coz my shite was grammar
>> Edited by nel on Monday 20th September 10:29
I agree, any business using service staff are at high risk of losing them & I know of several businesses doing the same as I have done.
I myself have shifted away from UK sourced suppliers for my business to companies in Euroland as I can no longer risk losing my licence when doing 40k+ miles per year visiting suppliers etc.
This year I have been flying to my new euroland suppliers from my local airport & I have cut down my mileage significantly along with culling £250k of previously exported UK made brewing plant.
One or two of my old suppliers are desperate for business because of this, but at the end of the day It's a risk I can't take as I'll lose my business if I lose my licence.
I myself have shifted away from UK sourced suppliers for my business to companies in Euroland as I can no longer risk losing my licence when doing 40k+ miles per year visiting suppliers etc.
This year I have been flying to my new euroland suppliers from my local airport & I have cut down my mileage significantly along with culling £250k of previously exported UK made brewing plant.
One or two of my old suppliers are desperate for business because of this, but at the end of the day It's a risk I can't take as I'll lose my business if I lose my licence.
Our company has done something similar. 5 of us used to do more thna 40K driving around UK. We used toclock up 3 points every 3 years or so in the mid 90's.
Now its easier and less hassle to fly to France Germany etc than drive to the South East from N Wales. The recent effects of lowered speed limits and punitive enforcement have seriousy increased journey times. But the risk to licences is also a factor in all of this whether conscious or unconscious.
Now its easier and less hassle to fly to France Germany etc than drive to the South East from N Wales. The recent effects of lowered speed limits and punitive enforcement have seriousy increased journey times. But the risk to licences is also a factor in all of this whether conscious or unconscious.
This was a topic I was going to introduce in my next post, so I'm delighted someone has brought it up.
Let's take a comparison between setting up a company in Britain and having to tolerate the M25, the whole barrage of driving offences, not just speed cameras, that all of your staff are likely to be confronted with, and the unviable alternative of using the rail network. Then add the cost of all of these; fuel, road tax, company car tax, fines, monstrous rail fares.
Now think about going just a couple of hundred miles south to the north of France.
There are at least four alternative routes joining every town, most of them beautiful open roads that you can cruise on. Substantially lower fuel costs, particularly diesel. so much better road sense and much, much less stress whilst driving; scamera partnerships and other similar organisations just do not exist, the French would have them on their knees with a big blade coming down on their necks!! The alternative of the rail network has to be one of the best in the world; try travelling from Paris to Carcassonne in the Mistral at 140 MPH with a glass of Chablis on the table of the dining car without a tremor; and you can time it's arrival with a stopwatch.
And the sun shines!! No contest!
Let's take a comparison between setting up a company in Britain and having to tolerate the M25, the whole barrage of driving offences, not just speed cameras, that all of your staff are likely to be confronted with, and the unviable alternative of using the rail network. Then add the cost of all of these; fuel, road tax, company car tax, fines, monstrous rail fares.
Now think about going just a couple of hundred miles south to the north of France.
There are at least four alternative routes joining every town, most of them beautiful open roads that you can cruise on. Substantially lower fuel costs, particularly diesel. so much better road sense and much, much less stress whilst driving; scamera partnerships and other similar organisations just do not exist, the French would have them on their knees with a big blade coming down on their necks!! The alternative of the rail network has to be one of the best in the world; try travelling from Paris to Carcassonne in the Mistral at 140 MPH with a glass of Chablis on the table of the dining car without a tremor; and you can time it's arrival with a stopwatch.
And the sun shines!! No contest!
IOLAIRE said:
This was a topic I was going to introduce in my next post, so I'm delighted someone has brought it up.
Let's take a comparison between setting up a company in Britain and having to tolerate the M25, the whole barrage of driving offences, not just speed cameras, that all of your staff are likely to be confronted with, and the unviable alternative of using the rail network. Then add the cost of all of these; fuel, road tax, company car tax, fines, monstrous rail fares.
Now think about going just a couple of hundred miles south to the north of France.
There are at least four alternative routes joining every town, most of them beautiful open roads that you can cruise on. Substantially lower fuel costs, particularly diesel. so much better road sense and much, much less stress whilst driving; scamera partnerships and other similar organisations just do not exist, the French would have them on their knees with a big blade coming down on their necks!! The alternative of the rail network has to be one of the best in the world; try travelling from Paris to Carcassonne in the Mistral at 140 MPH with a glass of Chablis on the table of the dining car without a tremor; and you can time it's arrival with a stopwatch.
And the sun shines!! No contest!
Yes and no - I'll briefly hijack my own thread!
France has speed cameras too now, and the repression is on the up and up.
Employing personnel in France is a VERY expensive business (huge social security costs compared to Britain) and wo betide you if you have to downsize and get rid of staff.
The state of bureaucracy over here puts off most innovators. The British government were looking into simplifying the administrative steps to setting up a business, because they discovered that 8 steps were required in the UK, compared to 6 in the USA and 4 in Canada and Aus (as I recall). In France they found that there are over 60 administrative hurdles...it all Napoleon's fault!
Money leaves France at an alarming rate because they are rampant socialists and impose an annual wealth tax on everyone worth more than around £500k, considering all your assets.
The wonderful French train system runs at a HUGE loss every year (but maybe that IS a better choice than the British alternative!).
Note that at the moment the corporate flow is from France to the UK, i.e. stick your headquarters in Ashford to reduce the social security costs, while still having good communications with Paris.
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From the reponses above it does start to seem likely that the more scamera-ridden locations in the UK will eventually suffer a noticeable negative impact on their coffers. The only way that they can avoid this loss of business from internal competition with low-scam areas within the UK will be to reduce their scamming or to make it just as bad everywhere else with a national scamera body. Doesn't bear thinking about....
This is all very interesting.
One of my businesses, in which I've been involved as a working director for many years, is in high-tech engineering recruitment.
I used to get cv's with 'Full Clean Licence' on them. Now they mostly tend to say 'Full Licence'.
In several instances, possible candidates have turned down opportunities for excellent jobs involving some element of travelling due to the fact that they have, say, 3 of 6 points and realise that if they get pinged a couple more times they will be both unemployed and unemployable. They would rather work close to home so that the risk of more points is reduced and if they were unlucky enought to get a ban they could either travel by public transport, or at least have a minimised risk of being caught DWD.
In my new business we are seriously considering equipping all key personnel with Road Angels and Laser-Jammers and paying the subscriptions for updates. I guess it wholly allowable as a business expense. We are also considering registering a branch of the company in Dublin and buying/taxing/insuring all the vehicles of our key staff there. They can still drive the vehicles in the UK so long as they go out of the country once every 6 months (but who checks?). Under EU rules there is nothing illegal in that. Hard to impose a S172 demand on a Dublin company!. As a UK licence holder, you can exchange it for an Irish licence if you have an address in Eire, which is not difficult to achieve.
Why is all this necessary? Because of the control-freakey and cash-greed of this b****y government.
One of my businesses, in which I've been involved as a working director for many years, is in high-tech engineering recruitment.
I used to get cv's with 'Full Clean Licence' on them. Now they mostly tend to say 'Full Licence'.
In several instances, possible candidates have turned down opportunities for excellent jobs involving some element of travelling due to the fact that they have, say, 3 of 6 points and realise that if they get pinged a couple more times they will be both unemployed and unemployable. They would rather work close to home so that the risk of more points is reduced and if they were unlucky enought to get a ban they could either travel by public transport, or at least have a minimised risk of being caught DWD.
In my new business we are seriously considering equipping all key personnel with Road Angels and Laser-Jammers and paying the subscriptions for updates. I guess it wholly allowable as a business expense. We are also considering registering a branch of the company in Dublin and buying/taxing/insuring all the vehicles of our key staff there. They can still drive the vehicles in the UK so long as they go out of the country once every 6 months (but who checks?). Under EU rules there is nothing illegal in that. Hard to impose a S172 demand on a Dublin company!. As a UK licence holder, you can exchange it for an Irish licence if you have an address in Eire, which is not difficult to achieve.
Why is all this necessary? Because of the control-freakey and cash-greed of this b****y government.
Cooperman said:
We are also considering registering a branch of the company in Dublin and buying/taxing/insuring all the vehicles of our key staff there. They can still drive the vehicles in the UK so long as they go out of the country once every 6 months (but who checks?). Under EU rules there is nothing illegal in that. Hard to impose a S172 demand on a Dublin company!.
You'll then be pleased to note that all the EU want a system where al points are transferable from country to country (already int he pipeline) so that just such things can be sorted
All thanks to the socialist axis Spain/Germany/France and scumbag bLIAR as well.....
JMGS4 said:
[quote=Cooperman] We are also considering registering a branch of the company in Dublin and buying/taxing/insuring all the vehicles of our key staff there. They can still drive the vehicles in the UK so long as they go out of the country once every 6 months (but who checks?). Under EU rules there is nothing illegal in that. Hard to impose a S172 demand on a Dublin company!.
You'll then be pleased to note that all the EU want a system where al points are transferable from country to country (already int he pipeline) so that just such things can be sorted
All thanks to the socialist axis Spain/Germany/France and scumbag bLIAR as well.....[/quote
That seems to be some years away.
The point I was making was this: If you are driving a foreign registered car in the UK and get stopped by a trafpol, then if you deserve it, you'll be nicked. However, for an unmanned camera or Talivan offence all they'll have is a photo of a foreign number plate. Now, if they write to, say, a Dublin-based company for driver details, what happens when they get no reply? How do they trace the driver to put 'Euro-Points' onto his/her licence? Do you really think the UK cops are going to contact the Irish cops to ask them to visit a Dublin company whose registered office is at a Dublin accountants. S172 cannot apply to an Irish accountants firm acting as company secretary for the Irish limited company branch of a UK parent company. Remember, all they want is your £60 in the kitty. The probable collection costs outweigh the income, and that is what it's all about.
In fact, you could register your car to a UK limited company with the registered address at an accountants and pay that accountancy firm to be the company secretary (a company can be listed as company secretary to another company - it's a loophole).
There is another dodge by which you can achieve two licences, one Irish and one English, in different names, technically quite legally, but I don't want to put on here how this is done. Suffice to say that my Met Police Inspector buddy told me how to do this - it's a fantastic and low-cost scheme and all you need is an Irish address and a couple of trips to Dublin.
those who don't want to get 'done' by the cameras and are determined it won't happen will not be 'done'.
medicineman said:
Alot of people comment "stop moaning and do something about the camera's" seems alot of buisnesses are doing exactly that.
That seems to be right.
For someone with, say, 6 points on their licence surely it would be prudent to put some sort of 'buffer' in place. Like buying a limited company 'off-the-shelf' for £100, paying an accountant to act as Company Secretary, and registering your cars to that company as the keeper. List yourself and, maybe, a couple of others as directors.
Any NIP will go to the accountant and he will not know who was driving, will he. The Co. Sec'y is liable under S172, but they can't put points onto a company, only an individual, and an accountant is likely to fight it, so they probably won't bother. Of course, the accountant would pass on any fine to the company, but the company would not pay it and would put the company into liquidation.
It's even better with a Dublin-based company and is virtually a complete buffer.
What is interesting, and I know this to be true, is how easily the scammers give up when the car is registered to a company with an accommodation address well outside their area.
So, let's look at the countermeasures:
Road Angel.
Laser-Jammer.
Broken Front Plate.
Register an English Limited Company as keeper with an accountancy firm or service company as company secretary.
Register/tax/insure car in Dublin to an Irish Company.
Get yourself an Irish address and an Irish Licence.
If you did all of those you would only ever get caught by a manned police patrol. Risk of getting banned would be almost zero unless you drove at really high speeds - like in excess of 100-120 mph on a regular basis.
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