legal advice - faulty car

[wjwren]

I purchased a car i saw on ebay from a company that dealt in finance repossessions. The car is a 58 plate Toyota. Paid a deposit via visa card over phone and then went to collect car. The car looked fine and I started it up etc. Paid the balance of £5200 and drove off. 3 miles down the road the VSC error light comes on (vehicle stability control) and the car goes into limp home mode. I phoned the guy back up an he said oh yeah i saw that before. Continued to drive it home and took it to Toyota today and they say it needs a new EGR and filter on the cat. £500. What are my legal rights. The car was a trade deal with no warranty etc but the car is not as described - in that it has a fault that the seller knew about. Going to call him today but would like advice first. Thank you.

[catman]

When you say that it was a trade deal, I assume that you are a private buyer and not a dealer?

There is no such thing as a trade deal to a private buyer! Even if you have this on the receipt, they cannot enforce it. If they won't play ball, then I'd get Trading Standards involved.

If you paid the deposit via credit card and it was more than £100, then I believe that you can also use them to lean on the supplier, as they are then considered to be part of the deal.

IANAL, so you may get someone who knows more about it along soon!
Tim

Edited by catman on Monday 4th March 19:27

[Meths]

If he's a dealer and won't play ball. The heavy thud of a small claims court summons makes quite an impact.


You will win if you're clued up. That's if he doesn't freak out and pay it immediately when he gets it.


There's no such thing as "trade sale" to a member of the public. There are rules and regulations that car dealers must adhere to. They can't just fob you off when they've sold you a piece of crap.

Edited by Meths on Monday 4th March 20:55

[andy-xr]

How does the sellers business relate to this? I'm asking as I dont know the answer. Would they be looked at the same as if they were, say a bakery selling off a vehicle or would they be treated as if they were a car dealer who be expected to have knowledge of the item for sale

[300bhp/ton]

wjwren said:

I purchased a car i saw on ebay from a company that dealt in finance repossessions. The car is a 58 plate Toyota. Paid a deposit via visa card over phone and then went to collect car. The car looked fine and I started it up etc. Paid the balance of £5200 and drove off. 3 miles down the road the VSC error light comes on (vehicle stability control) and the car goes into limp home mode. I phoned the guy back up an he said oh yeah i saw that before. Continued to drive it home and took it to Toyota today and they say it needs a new EGR and filter on the cat. £500. What are my legal rights. The car was a trade deal with no warranty etc but the car is not as described - in that it has a fault that the seller knew about. Going to call him today but would like advice first. Thank you.

If the seller knew and didn't say, then they have breached parts of SOGA and you have a very strong case.

However help yourself to help yourself and read these:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-cus...
http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-cus...

[Ozzie Osmond]

andy-xr said:

How does the sellers business relate to this? I'm asking as I dont know the answer. Would they be looked at the same as if they were, say a bakery selling off a vehicle or would they be treated as if they were a car dealer who be expected to have knowledge of the item for sale

The "trade saller" point is that,

"Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality." s.14 SOGA 1979

Generally where a bakery sells off an old vehicle the sale of that vehicle is not "in the course of the baker's business". Owning the vehicle is simply incidental to his business. He sells bread and cakes in the course of his business but not vehicles.

Pushing this to the extreme you might reasonably ask what happens when Hertz rent-a-car sells off its vehicles. I suspect the answer is that they sell through auctions to avoid possible complications.

[andy-xr]

Ozzie Osmond said:

The "trade saller" point is that,

"Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality." s.14 SOGA 1979

Generally where a bakery sells off an old vehicle the sale of that vehicle is not "in the course of the baker's business". Owning the vehicle is simply incidental to his business. He sells bread and cakes in the course of his business but not vehicles.

Pushing this to the extreme you might reasonably ask what happens when Hertz rent-a-car sells off its vehicles. I suspect the answer is that they sell through auctions to avoid possible complications.

Aye, that's where I'm digging towards - not knowing what the repo house actually does, maybe they sell on any material items that are repossessed by a finance company, cars, TVs, games consoles - OP might need to clarify that

[Grenoble]

The OP paid by visa over the phone.

The seller might struggle to say he wasn't trading as part of the business if he accepted the visa through the business....

[ging84]

The OP does not say if he bought it at a fixed price or auction, either way first step is to contact seller through eBay and raise a dispute, if it was an auction that is probably as far as you can go even if the seller is a trader

[Ozzie Osmond]

ging84 said:

The OP does not say if he bought it at a fixed price or auction, either way first step is to contact seller through eBay and raise a dispute, if it was an auction that is probably as far as you can go even if the seller is a trader

IRRC sale on ebay does not usually count as a real "auction", although many dodgy trade sellers like to try to hide behind that excuse.

[rallycross]

How Much did you pay?

Guess now why it was so cheap?

[Snowboy]

I guess it depends on whether they are a car dealer or a reposesion company.
They may have the same sort of excemptions as a car auction.

Either way; £500 on top of an £8k second hand car isn't a bad deal.

These days, I tend to assume an extra 5-10% to fix whatever needs fixing.

[andy-xr]

Grenoble said:

The OP paid by visa over the phone.

The seller might struggle to say he wasn't trading as part of the business if he accepted the visa through the business....

That's not my point - my point is that any business could sell a car that they own through their business, but in the case of a bakery, (I dont know why I used that before but I'll continue to do so), they wouldnt be expected to be experts in knowing what was good and bad about one of their vehicles, but it'd be expected that if the business owned it, it could sell it. So you'd probably struggle to go back to Warburtons waving the SOGA asking about warranties. Or would you?

[Grenoble]

andy-xr said:

That's not my point - my point is that any business could sell a car that they own through their business, but in the case of a bakery, (I dont know why I used that before but I'll continue to do so), they wouldnt be expected to be experts in knowing what was good and bad about one of their vehicles, but it'd be expected that if the business owned it, it could sell it. So you'd probably struggle to go back to Warburtons waving the SOGA asking about warranties. Or would you?

I think my point is that the moment you start selling things through your business to a member of the public you open yourself to the risk of complying with all elements of SOGA - you can't opt out because it isn't your core business and you aren't the "expert".

[300bhp/ton]

andy-xr said:

Grenoble said:

The OP paid by visa over the phone.

The seller might struggle to say he wasn't trading as part of the business if he accepted the visa through the business....

That's not my point - my point is that any business could sell a car that they own through their business, but in the case of a bakery, (I dont know why I used that before but I'll continue to do so), they wouldnt be expected to be experts in knowing what was good and bad about one of their vehicles, but it'd be expected that if the business owned it, it could sell it. So you'd probably struggle to go back to Warburtons waving the SOGA asking about warranties. Or would you?

I think this would be up for debate. While something like a bakery isn't as part of it's usual business buying and selling cars. However if they regularly buy and sell a van that the bakery uses then they might well be seen as part of the business. Especially if the vehicle is register to the business as an asset. I don't know if there is any case law or regs on this, but it's how I'd see it.

i.e.

the private seller handed money to a business in exchange for a car. The money then went into the business and not a private individuals non business bank account....

[singlecoil]

300bhp/ton said:

andy-xr said:

Grenoble said:

The OP paid by visa over the phone.

The seller might struggle to say he wasn't trading as part of the business if he accepted the visa through the business....

That's not my point - my point is that any business could sell a car that they own through their business, but in the case of a bakery, (I dont know why I used that before but I'll continue to do so), they wouldnt be expected to be experts in knowing what was good and bad about one of their vehicles, but it'd be expected that if the business owned it, it could sell it. So you'd probably struggle to go back to Warburtons waving the SOGA asking about warranties. Or would you?

I think this would be up for debate. While something like a bakery isn't as part of it's usual business buying and selling cars. However if they regularly buy and sell a van that the bakery uses then they might well be seen as part of the business. Especially if the vehicle is register to the business as an asset. I don't know if there is any case law or regs on this, but it's how I'd see it.

i.e.

the private seller handed money to a business in exchange for a car. The money then went into the business and not a private individuals non business bank account....

AIUI, businesses can dispose of assets by selling to whoever wishes to buy them, as long as the sale isn't done for the purpose of making profit.

[Snowboy]

Random assumptions ahead . . .

If I went to a repo sale and bought a toaster/computer/phone it would probably come with some disclaimer about 'sold as seen' .
As a repo sale I would assume that's legal.

I wonder if repo cars have the same sort of exception/exemption at the first point of sale.
If a dealer buys and resels they are expected to check the car, but perhaps the repo company doesn't have that obligation.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Snowboy said:

If I went to a repo sale and bought a.......

A repo company is selling those items in the normal course of its business so it's a trader, just like any other second-hand shop. Or second-hand car seller.

If the repo company runs a genuine auction then the auction rules would apply the usual exemptions.

[rallycross]

why did you buy it from a repo company

Answer = because it was cheap.

why was it cheap?

Answer = because it was from a repo company.

Why does that mean its cheap?

Because repo company = sold as seen, cheap, usually no history, one key, dubious past, unknown quantity, sold as seen history cannot be proven its cheap, but take your chances. Good way for people to sell crap cars with no come back. If you dont know what you are doing then buying one of these is taking a risk, a bit like buying a Cat D/ Cat C if you dont know what you are doing its not a good idea.

[Du1point8]

If it was bought from a company that did financial repossessions, are they really a trader, is it just cars or is it all types of stock and this car happened to be one that was brought in.

If I was buying a car Im not sure I would want a repossession, if the people involved cant afford the car, then what are the chances the servicing, etc have been ignored too?