Sliproad etiquette
Discussion
2 different situations I'd like to hear view on from our resident BiB:
1. Joining a motorway from a sliproad, car in front does not accelerate to match (or get close to matching) the speed of the traffic in Lane 1 - either joins eventually and causes a queue down the sliproad or stops at the end of the sliproad and waits for a non-existant gap in the traffic. Cars behind slow vehicle on sliproad end up joining motorway around slow vehicle.
I know the slow vehicle has the right over the cars behind it, but aren't they driving dangerously by not getting up to a reasonably speed on the sliproad? What do the Police do with these kinds of people (I'm sure you have come up behind them on your travels!).
2. Sliproad joining a motorway again, 2 lanes down to the motorway and kind of peter out into 1 lane (i.e. markings disappear and traffic usually just merges and joins. Let's say a car was at the end of the sliproad, waiting for a gap in the stationery traffic jam on the motorway, usually with some cars behind obeditently doing the same. What does the law say when a car comes down the sliproad and decides to swerve around the waiting cars and create his own entry point to the motorway a few metres further along, usually followed by a bunch of other cars. Now we have 2 queues trying to joing the motorway and the first queue, once joined have to let the new queuers from further up in too. Slowing the motorway down even more. Is this just inconsiderate driving or something else?
Comments appreciated.
1. Joining a motorway from a sliproad, car in front does not accelerate to match (or get close to matching) the speed of the traffic in Lane 1 - either joins eventually and causes a queue down the sliproad or stops at the end of the sliproad and waits for a non-existant gap in the traffic. Cars behind slow vehicle on sliproad end up joining motorway around slow vehicle.
I know the slow vehicle has the right over the cars behind it, but aren't they driving dangerously by not getting up to a reasonably speed on the sliproad? What do the Police do with these kinds of people (I'm sure you have come up behind them on your travels!).
2. Sliproad joining a motorway again, 2 lanes down to the motorway and kind of peter out into 1 lane (i.e. markings disappear and traffic usually just merges and joins. Let's say a car was at the end of the sliproad, waiting for a gap in the stationery traffic jam on the motorway, usually with some cars behind obeditently doing the same. What does the law say when a car comes down the sliproad and decides to swerve around the waiting cars and create his own entry point to the motorway a few metres further along, usually followed by a bunch of other cars. Now we have 2 queues trying to joing the motorway and the first queue, once joined have to let the new queuers from further up in too. Slowing the motorway down even more. Is this just inconsiderate driving or something else?
Comments appreciated.
nutcase said:
Instance Number 1 is one of my (and probably alot of people's) biggest pet-hates when driving, it's one of the most stupid, idiotic things that happen on the road. It just completely flags up some motorists inability to judge speed and distance correctly. They think that 'slowly does it' is safe, but it really isn't as the speed differential is much higher....
Sorry, but I'm not a copper- but couldn't resist a dig.
I followed a car full of people down a slip road to join the M56 last week.
Car tootling along towards the end of the slip road with me happily following on the bike. Doing 60'ish.
I'm waiting for him to pull out as I do my lifesaver to see whats happening in the first lane, look back and F**k me the bugger slammed on his brakes!
He then stays stopped until there's a wide gap in the traffic - and a nice line of bikes and cars all stuck behind the pratt.
Could easily have been a nasty accident....
Car tootling along towards the end of the slip road with me happily following on the bike. Doing 60'ish.
I'm waiting for him to pull out as I do my lifesaver to see whats happening in the first lane, look back and F**k me the bugger slammed on his brakes!
He then stays stopped until there's a wide gap in the traffic - and a nice line of bikes and cars all stuck behind the pratt.
Could easily have been a nasty accident....
I think we need to change the way roads are marked, so that motorway slip roads have right of way over L1.
This sounds radical, but makes sense when you think about it.
Lets say you are joining a busy motorway, and for arguments sake in a relatively low powered vehicle. You use the slip road to get up to the speed of the motorway, after which you have just a few seconds to "pick your gap" in which to merge. If a vehicle is alongside you then your only choices are to brake to get behind it (which is precisely the wrong thing to do when joining a fast road), pull up in the sliproad or charge on into the hard shoulder! You have nowhere else to go. If the sliproad climbs up to the level of the motorway as many do, the situation is even worse, as you have less capability to accelerate into the traffic flow, plus a later initial view of the road.
Contrast this with the situation for the traffic already on the motorway. As they approach a sliproad they can easily open up a gap by accelerating or braking slightly, or by moving into L2 to leave a hole for a joining vehicle.
In short, it is easy for the traffic on the motorway to give way as there are several options open, but very difficult for traffic joining, as they often have but one choice. This is why lorries are so often forced into the "indicate and barge in" scenario - what else can they do?
IMHO, The markings should be changed so that in the normal course of events the slip road becomes L1, and the existing L1 gives way to it. Either that or chop the motorway down to 2 lanes beforehand so that the slip road makes it back up to 3 (but that's not as good a use of the available space, as the motorway traffic is then squeezed down into 2 lanes whether there is joining traffic or not).
This sounds radical, but makes sense when you think about it.
Lets say you are joining a busy motorway, and for arguments sake in a relatively low powered vehicle. You use the slip road to get up to the speed of the motorway, after which you have just a few seconds to "pick your gap" in which to merge. If a vehicle is alongside you then your only choices are to brake to get behind it (which is precisely the wrong thing to do when joining a fast road), pull up in the sliproad or charge on into the hard shoulder! You have nowhere else to go. If the sliproad climbs up to the level of the motorway as many do, the situation is even worse, as you have less capability to accelerate into the traffic flow, plus a later initial view of the road.
Contrast this with the situation for the traffic already on the motorway. As they approach a sliproad they can easily open up a gap by accelerating or braking slightly, or by moving into L2 to leave a hole for a joining vehicle.
In short, it is easy for the traffic on the motorway to give way as there are several options open, but very difficult for traffic joining, as they often have but one choice. This is why lorries are so often forced into the "indicate and barge in" scenario - what else can they do?
IMHO, The markings should be changed so that in the normal course of events the slip road becomes L1, and the existing L1 gives way to it. Either that or chop the motorway down to 2 lanes beforehand so that the slip road makes it back up to 3 (but that's not as good a use of the available space, as the motorway traffic is then squeezed down into 2 lanes whether there is joining traffic or not).
BlackStuff said:
I think we need to change the way roads are marked, so that motorway slip roads have right of way over L1.
This sounds radical, but makes sense when you think about it.
Sorry blackstuff, I've got to disagree.
The markings at the end of the slip road mean give way. Driving a truck which is limited to 56 mph, it's sometimes very hard to do, especially on short sliproads.
blackstuff said:
Contrast this with the situation for the traffic already on the motorway. As they approach a sliproad they can easily open up a gap by accelerating or braking slightly, or by moving into L2 to leave a hole for a joining vehicle.
You have got to try getting into lane 2, driving a truck, when you're in heavy traffic.
We try our best, but ultimately it's up to you to merge safely.
blackstuff said:.
This is why lorries are so often forced into the "indicate and barge in" scenario - what else can they do?
It's nice to come across someone who appreciates we do our best, but, if we slow, mayhem soon follows.
Phil
I believe they have the 'joining has priority' rule in the US (some states at least). Seems to work well, but over there you often have many more lanes to move over into and traffic only tends to use lane 1 when it's entering/exiting. They do have lights to control traffic joining at the end of the sliproad in busy areas/periods too though. Lane 1 has an annoying habit of exiting onto another road on you in the US - it's easy to spot the European visitors this way though 
philthy said:
I think we need to change the way roads are marked, so that motorway slip roads have right of way over L1.
This sounds radical, but makes sense when you think about it.
Sorry blackstuff, I've got to disagree.
The markings at the end of the slip road mean give way. Driving a truck which is limited to 56 mph, it's sometimes very hard to do, especially on short sliproads.blackstuff said:
Contrast this with the situation for the traffic already on the motorway. As they approach a sliproad they can easily open up a gap by accelerating or braking slightly, or by moving into L2 to leave a hole for a joining vehicle.
You have got to try getting into lane 2, driving a truck, when you're in heavy traffic.
We try our best, but ultimately it's up to you to merge safely.
Yes it can be hard for an HGV to get into L2, but it's still easier than getting the same vehicle into L1 of a busy motorway from the sliproad.
Take the worst case of a one HGV merging with another on a busy motorway, both on the limiter. With the current situation the joining truck has to either barge out, or brake to try and get behind the other lorry, which puts him smack into whatever is behind that lorry, and going slower. If there isn't a gap there he really is stuck.
But if the right of way were reversed the lorry in L1 would either move into L2 if there was a gap, or come off the power to let the joining lorry in front of him. Ok that's a pain, but its still far safer for him to do so than the joining vehicle.
Quite honestly I think you're going the right way to create even more hold-ups and accidents if you give the joining traffic RoW, especially in morning and eving rushhours.
Let me remind you of rule 233 in the highway code.....
When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You should
give priority to traffic already on the motorway
check the traffic on the motorway and adjust your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
not cross solid white lines that separate lanes
stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway
remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking.
End of rule
Now if everybody behaved themselves and stopped being selfish - we'd all get on to the motorway a lot easier.
Piccy mate.
Let me remind you of rule 233 in the highway code.....
When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You should
give priority to traffic already on the motorway
check the traffic on the motorway and adjust your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
not cross solid white lines that separate lanes
stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway
remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking.
End of rule
Now if everybody behaved themselves and stopped being selfish - we'd all get on to the motorway a lot easier.
Piccy mate.
Blackstuff,
It's good we can talk about this on here, instead of at the side of a motorway.
I REALLY do my best to allow people to merge onto a motorway, but it's amazing how many people don't know how to.
I'm assuming if you're driving a car, it will do more than 56mph. IMHO if it can't, it should not be allowed to use a motorway.
In the past, I have had to hold up a merging truck. What usually happens, is the truck uses the hard shoulder (I know, it's got to be clear etc etc). There seems to be a fear of "putting one's foot down" to join a motorway without disrupting traffic flow.
If only I could "drop the hammer" and make room for you, I would. Unfortunately, we have a laws that prehibit me using my own mind.
On the other hand of course, I've witnessed drivers joining a motorway, in suitable vehicles, that have merged, safely!, then been pulled. It doesn't do to make too much "progress".
We will reap what we sow....................
yeah right, stupidity kills, and while stupidity is enforced things won't change.
Tired. got a cold, not slept, feeling negative....
Drive safely
Phil
It's good we can talk about this on here, instead of at the side of a motorway.
I REALLY do my best to allow people to merge onto a motorway, but it's amazing how many people don't know how to.
I'm assuming if you're driving a car, it will do more than 56mph. IMHO if it can't, it should not be allowed to use a motorway.
In the past, I have had to hold up a merging truck. What usually happens, is the truck uses the hard shoulder (I know, it's got to be clear etc etc). There seems to be a fear of "putting one's foot down" to join a motorway without disrupting traffic flow.
If only I could "drop the hammer" and make room for you, I would. Unfortunately, we have a laws that prehibit me using my own mind.
On the other hand of course, I've witnessed drivers joining a motorway, in suitable vehicles, that have merged, safely!, then been pulled. It doesn't do to make too much "progress".
We will reap what we sow....................
yeah right, stupidity kills, and while stupidity is enforced things won't change.
Tired. got a cold, not slept, feeling negative....
Drive safely
Phil
Its all about observation. If the motorway's busy and you see a truck coming that will be blocking you as you get to the end of the slip, then its down to you to adjust speed accordingly so that you either arrive ahead of the truck or behind it. Simple.
Similarly, traffic on the motorway should be as a matter of course looking out for vehicles joining the m-way and plan ahead to allow them room to merge. I appreciate that trucks are at a disadvantage here, but if everyone tries their best the system generally works.
I can honestly say that in all the years I've been driving, the only times I've not been able to merge cleanly into a motorway is when its been at a standstill.
Problems only seem to arise when a myopic Micra driver arrives at the end of the slip at 44.7mph and only then decides to look to see what traffic there might be in the way!
Bring on compulsory motorway driving lessons and tests!
Similarly, traffic on the motorway should be as a matter of course looking out for vehicles joining the m-way and plan ahead to allow them room to merge. I appreciate that trucks are at a disadvantage here, but if everyone tries their best the system generally works.
I can honestly say that in all the years I've been driving, the only times I've not been able to merge cleanly into a motorway is when its been at a standstill.
Problems only seem to arise when a myopic Micra driver arrives at the end of the slip at 44.7mph and only then decides to look to see what traffic there might be in the way!
Bring on compulsory motorway driving lessons and tests!
Saw a green "L" plater girl coming up to a sliproad leading onto a duel carrageway, she just swerved out onto it!!! Me and 3 other cars had to take serious evasive action to avoid her. when I overtook her just afterward I bipped my horn and looked over, she was doing the "4x4 look straight ahead look coz nothing else can matter then" thing.
Budding RAV4 driver in the works.,...
Budding RAV4 driver in the works.,...
How about an extra lane between each junction so that the slip lanes are joined. Thus we would have 3 lanes through each junction and 4 between them. All traffic in lane one has to exit, the traffic joining can get up to speed and move to lane two before the next exit.
Maybe a good idea, but there is a problem, all the numpties would not have a clue!
Maybe a good idea, but there is a problem, all the numpties would not have a clue!
In my experience, the vast majority of L1 drivers are very curtious and do tend to adjust speed to accommodate vehicles joining from the slip road 
, but it takes two to tango and the greater responsibilty for adjusting speed is with the driver joining the motorway, as stated in the highway code. Any experienced driver should be able to adjust their speed with minimal fuss by subtle use of the throttle, braking should only be necessary when the motorway is gridlocked.
However, to avoid the numpty slip road brake test, cruise at max 40mph
, apply the two second rule and then floor it when your path is clear and you need to adjust your speed to merge into L1... works for me 
, but it takes two to tango and the greater responsibilty for adjusting speed is with the driver joining the motorway, as stated in the highway code. Any experienced driver should be able to adjust their speed with minimal fuss by subtle use of the throttle, braking should only be necessary when the motorway is gridlocked. However, to avoid the numpty slip road brake test, cruise at max 40mph
, apply the two second rule and then floor it when your path is clear and you need to adjust your speed to merge into L1... works for me 
kevinday said:As per a good number of the junctions on the M25 between the M23 and M40 exits.
How about an extra lane between each junction so that the slip lanes are joined. Thus we would have 3 lanes through each junction and 4 between them. All traffic in lane one has to exit, the traffic joining can get up to speed and move to lane two before the next exit.
Maybe a good idea, but there is a problem, all the numpties would not have a clue!
davel said:
It really isn't difficult unless the traffic is at a standstill.
If you're pacing yourself ready to pull out it really is very rare for you not to be able to do so.
Totally agree. The problem is that some people do not or cannot judge traffic so that they can pace themselves to join it. Also, where the sliproad rises from a low roundabout there are some cars (or people) who cannot accelerate quickly enough. Much better to have roundabouts above motorways -- easier to accelerate onto and decelerate from.
Whilst these replies are spot on I'd like to say that we have some "very new" sliproads onto the A90.
These are quite short and even with the best rearwards observation by the time you can observe that you cannot reasonably join the dual, you are in fact at the end of the sliproads!
Subtle bit of road design there!!
MoJo.
These are quite short and even with the best rearwards observation by the time you can observe that you cannot reasonably join the dual, you are in fact at the end of the sliproads!
Subtle bit of road design there!!
MoJo.
Lieber Piccy Mate has already reminded of HC rule 233 and page 149 of "RoadCraft" reminds that drivers already on the motorway have priority and may not be able to switch into L2 to let you join. It urges us to plan, and use our sense of acceleration and that poor planning will cause you to halt before you join. It also urges us to think about howspeed and position will affect nearside vehicles on the motorway - that if we overtake vehicle on the nearsidejust before joining - you could block its path and you could collide wih it if you cannot move straight into L2 on joining.
Simple answer is to do what Germany does - include the drive in lessons and on the L-test. There are plenty of fast dual carriageways which have similar m/way lay-outs across the country.
Paul Ripley urges us all to have an "escape plan" - and even suggests running into emergency lane if you find you have "emergency" which means collision or drive onto hard shoulder
and makes wry comment that "lane discipline is a forgotten art"
As for giving slip road traffic priority over traffic already tootling down at 70 mph ..... er ...
Courtesy applies to both sets of people and both should be applying COAST (with emphasis on each letter here).
But ..... we said it before - we need to encourage the constant training and we need to have incentives such as insurance benefits to motivate existing drivers to do this - and introduce this periodic assessement/skills update/brush-up for all new drivers.
There Liebchen - sorted in the feline way!
Simple answer is to do what Germany does - include the drive in lessons and on the L-test. There are plenty of fast dual carriageways which have similar m/way lay-outs across the country.
Paul Ripley urges us all to have an "escape plan" - and even suggests running into emergency lane if you find you have "emergency" which means collision or drive onto hard shoulder
and makes wry comment that "lane discipline is a forgotten art" As for giving slip road traffic priority over traffic already tootling down at 70 mph ..... er ...
Courtesy applies to both sets of people and both should be applying COAST (with emphasis on each letter here). But ..... we said it before - we need to encourage the constant training and we need to have incentives such as insurance benefits to motivate existing drivers to do this - and introduce this periodic assessement/skills update/brush-up for all new drivers.
There Liebchen - sorted in the feline way!
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff