NIP (yawn I know but)
Discussion
Just recieved an NIP - 40 in a Dual Carrigeway 30, I knew when it was happening, it was a blatant trap with a camera van hiding over the brow of the hill - I groaned when I saw him cos even tho I was going slow - I knew it wasn't slow enough.
Not getting into the usual arguments about whether this is right or wrong as I think its futile - but I would like to know what the latest is on NIP's - is there still a potential get out due to the EU Human Rights issues or have things changed now.
A year/18months or so ago I was "up to speed"
on this, but my knowlege has lapsed and I know things have changed....... any sound info appreciated, I'm gonna leave it a couple of weeks before I decide anyway..
ta
>>> Edited by skyrocketship on Thursday 23 September 11:16
Not getting into the usual arguments about whether this is right or wrong as I think its futile - but I would like to know what the latest is on NIP's - is there still a potential get out due to the EU Human Rights issues or have things changed now.
A year/18months or so ago I was "up to speed"
on this, but my knowlege has lapsed and I know things have changed....... any sound info appreciated, I'm gonna leave it a couple of weeks before I decide anyway.. ta
>>> Edited by skyrocketship on Thursday 23 September 11:16
Agree with Puggit, the current thinking seems to be that if you take a hard line with them and make it obvious that you WILL be taking this to court and you WILL be demanding advance disclosure of the video evidence, then there is every chance they'll let it drop.
Possibilities:
1. Civvie operators can't form an opinion of speed.
2. Any operator has to form an opinion of speed before he presses the trigger. The video evidence may well prove that he hasn't.
3. The same video evidence may prove that his expert opinion was unreliable, if it shows that lots of other vehicles he targetted weren't speeding, when he had supposedly formed a prior opinion that they were.
4. The PACE argument, that the self-incrimination part of the NIP form can't be produced as evidence, as you weren't cautioned before filling it in.
Either way, go and have a look on www.pepipoo.com for the all the latest legal advice, and as you say don't be in a hurry to do anything.
>> Edited by BlackStuff on Thursday 23 September 11:38
Possibilities:
1. Civvie operators can't form an opinion of speed.
2. Any operator has to form an opinion of speed before he presses the trigger. The video evidence may well prove that he hasn't.
3. The same video evidence may prove that his expert opinion was unreliable, if it shows that lots of other vehicles he targetted weren't speeding, when he had supposedly formed a prior opinion that they were.
4. The PACE argument, that the self-incrimination part of the NIP form can't be produced as evidence, as you weren't cautioned before filling it in.
Either way, go and have a look on www.pepipoo.com for the all the latest legal advice, and as you say don't be in a hurry to do anything.
>> Edited by BlackStuff on Thursday 23 September 11:38
If you have not yet returned the NIP completed then use the following.
My way of Judgement in the European Court there is a judgement from the ECJ stating that you cannot by means of penalty request information that would incriminate oneself in a criminal charge. A penalty can only be used in some civil matters.
The Judgement I refer to is Weh v Austria (April 2004)
Therefore I have returned the section172 form not completed.
My way of Judgement in the European Court there is a judgement from the ECJ stating that you cannot by means of penalty request information that would incriminate oneself in a criminal charge. A penalty can only be used in some civil matters.
The Judgement I refer to is Weh v Austria (April 2004)
Therefore I have returned the section172 form not completed.
cen said:
If you have not yet returned the NIP completed then use the following.
My way of Judgement in the European Court there is a judgement from the ECJ stating that you cannot by means of penalty request information that would incriminate oneself in a criminal charge. A penalty can only be used in some civil matters.
The Judgement I refer to is Weh v Austria (April 2004)
Therefore I have returned the section172 form not completed.
What was the result of this sort of thing recently? 3 points and £750 fine....
If you want to risk that sort of advice......
Street
Dwight VanDriver said:
Cen
Weh v Austria [2004] conclusions:
FOR THESE REASONS, THE COURT
1. Holds by four votes to three that there has been no violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention;
DVD
DVD, Can I suggest you give the conclusions more thought by way of understanding. You must read the full conclusion. What you refer to is with regard that at no time did he refer to the human rights act. It goes on further. See para.41-46 reference to Funke and others. If you read half a book then you will not learn of what happens in the end.
The Court concluded with references to Heaney and McGuinness Paragraph 41, Funke P. 20, 39 and Quinn v Ireland, no.36887/97, 43-46 which states that the use of compulsion is only permitted in civil cases, it also follows from the Court’s case Law that the privilege against self discrimination does not per se prohibit the use of compulsory powers to obtain information outside the context of criminal proceedings against the person concerned. In other words, compulsory powers may be permitted in SOME civil cases but certainly not in Criminal cases.
>> Edited by cen on Friday 24th September 12:49
Ken
I note from your profile that your studies, in which I hope you are successful, are presumably being made with a view to joining the Teflon Mafia.
Once qualified in your endeavours, to make a point you may well have to rely on the decisions of the geriatric elder Camorra. If so, then, for your coup de grace, it will not be their ramblings you will spout but their conclusions.
As to reading the Book, you no doubt will have the the full transcripts of such matters. I, a mere interested mortal have not and for general purposes have to rely on condensed versions of which the conclusion interests me the most. It is possible to get an idea of the plot from the fly leaf is it not?.
DVD
I note from your profile that your studies, in which I hope you are successful, are presumably being made with a view to joining the Teflon Mafia.
Once qualified in your endeavours, to make a point you may well have to rely on the decisions of the geriatric elder Camorra. If so, then, for your coup de grace, it will not be their ramblings you will spout but their conclusions.
As to reading the Book, you no doubt will have the the full transcripts of such matters. I, a mere interested mortal have not and for general purposes have to rely on condensed versions of which the conclusion interests me the most. It is possible to get an idea of the plot from the fly leaf is it not?.
DVD
DVD
You will also note from the said profile that I am a post graduate student.
I am furthering the legal qualifications to phd. How many of these elder statesmen will match or cope with a doctorate?
Yes I do want to change the system and I will attempt to do so through various means.
You will also note from the said profile that I am a post graduate student.
I am furthering the legal qualifications to phd. How many of these elder statesmen will match or cope with a doctorate?
Yes I do want to change the system and I will attempt to do so through various means.
Blue eyes.
I don't think either us have put ourselves up as the fountain of all knowledge. We have our opinions and try to report things from the other side of the fence.
As far as Cen is concerned, I think he is wrong. He has his opinion,which I respect. I have mine which is all the law is about.Time will tell and indicated when all speeding fines are returned because Cen indicates their imposition is unlawful.No moves afoot as yet that I have read about.
DVD
I don't think either us have put ourselves up as the fountain of all knowledge. We have our opinions and try to report things from the other side of the fence.
As far as Cen is concerned, I think he is wrong. He has his opinion,which I respect. I have mine which is all the law is about.Time will tell and indicated when all speeding fines are returned because Cen indicates their imposition is unlawful.No moves afoot as yet that I have read about.
DVD
wtf? is going on in here :lol:
streetcop, like most of your other posts in this section, you are as helpful as a match in a hurricane - I know we are not alowed to "have a go at the coppers" in here so I will be careful what I say, but your comments and "holier than thou" attitude in pretty much everything you post doesn't help the "image" we have of the police. You probably think your funny..... I suppose you are actually but not for the reasons you think
I have done a bit of reading up, from what I can tell its pretty futile trying to "bodge" the NIP so sending that back correctly filled in seems to be the way.....
yes there may be issues over the actual method of measuring the speed, depending on what equipment and the circumstances but I will have to wait and see exactly what the circumstances are after I have returned the NIP - which I will do in 3 weeks time.
Suspect that as streetcop says I will just have to take it on the chin......... 3 points came off in august, 3 more on in september...... oh well
streetcop, like most of your other posts in this section, you are as helpful as a match in a hurricane
- I know we are not alowed to "have a go at the coppers" in here so I will be careful what I say, but your comments and "holier than thou" attitude in pretty much everything you post doesn't help the "image" we have of the police. You probably think your funny..... I suppose you are actually but not for the reasons you think I have done a bit of reading up, from what I can tell its pretty futile trying to "bodge" the NIP so sending that back correctly filled in seems to be the way.....
yes there may be issues over the actual method of measuring the speed, depending on what equipment and the circumstances but I will have to wait and see exactly what the circumstances are after I have returned the NIP - which I will do in 3 weeks time.
Suspect that as streetcop says I will just have to take it on the chin......... 3 points came off in august, 3 more on in september...... oh well
skyrocketship said:
streetcop, like most of your other posts in this section, you are as helpful as a match in a hurricane
If you mean this thread..I, and others might agree with you. If you mean on Speed, plod and the law, then you might have some opposition to your view.
skyrocketship said:
your comments and "holier than thou" attitude in pretty much everything you post doesn't help the "image" we have of the police.
Some people's views wont change whatever they see or hear.
skyrocketship said:
You probably think your funny..... I suppose you are actually
Nuff said...
skyrocketship said:
I have done a bit of reading up, from what I can tell its pretty futile trying to "bodge" the NIP so sending that back correctly filled in seems to be the way.....
skyrocketship said:
Suspect that as streetcop says I will just have to take it on the chin......... 3 points came off in august, 3 more on in september...... oh well
C'est la vie...
Street
ps: thanks for taking the time
skyrocketship said:
Just recieved an NIP - 40 in a Dual Carrigeway 30, I knew when it was happening, it was a blatant trap with a camera van hiding over the brow of the hill - I groaned when I saw him cos even tho I was going slow - I knew it wasn't slow enough.
Not getting into the usual arguments about whether this is right or wrong as I think its futile - but I would like to know what the latest is on NIP's - is there still a potential get out due to the EU Human Rights issues or have things changed now.
A year/18months or so ago I was "up to speed"
ta
>>> Edited by skyrocketship on Thursday 23 September 11:16
40 in a 30 that's nothing m8. I was lazered doing 82 in a 50 roadwoks though nothing was going on they had all buggered off as it was Sunday. They sent me two NIPs both ended up in the bin. I wrote back and used the Hamilton defence, I might add before they used it. Never heard anything more and it's over 12 months now.
Just make life difficult and they usually give up, after all they are only interested in the quick buck!
If everybody had the balls to chuck their NIPs in the bin (sounds painful) the system would collapse!
VD5D
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