SPEED KILLS - SLOWLY
Discussion
I have in the past indicated that there are often differences in the problems encountered in Scotland as opposed to England. This is an example of what is to me the single largest, most potentially dangerous problem encountered when driving up north to the Highlands.
When I lived in Skye I had to come down to Glasgow perhaps twice a month to take care of business. In the winter it was no problem, the summer however was a living nightmare.
At that time I still had my old Quattro, a car with awesome ability and overtaking power, and most importantly, tremendous safety.
On one particular occasion I was travelling back up to Skye when I came upon a tailback approximately half way up Loch Lomond side; as it went out of sight round the nearest bend I knew it was considerable. This was mid afternoon, late summer, before 9/11 and mad cow and all the other events that have seriously damaged the tourist trade, so the country was very busy.
Some years ago, after decades of complaints, lives lost in accidents and God knows how many public enquiries, the powers that be finally agreed to properly upgrade the road around Loch Lomond. They caused utter havoc for months, if not years doing so and after they completed it we are still left with a single carriageway, and around two thirds of the way up the Loch is a permanent contra-flow with traffic lights. It is there because the funds for the improvements were grossly mismanaged and they ran out of money to complete the project, they then couldn't blast the rock away to widen the road; so they just left it! Remember this is the main and only trunk route to the Western Isles. The effect of any prohibitive or restrictive driving on this road is greatly enhanced because of this problem.
This day however, was the worst I have ever seen and, despite the fact I could see ahead on a few straight sections I never got to see the front of the queue, the traffic somtimes coming almost to a standstill.
Finally we got to Tyndrum, a small village at a junction with an excellent restaurant. As I approached the car park on the right I could see a chap in his early sixties with his wife in a brand new Citreon blocking the drive into the car park and another younger man in a BMW behind him utterly screaming at him and I made my mind up that I had to do something about this problem and this was a place to start. I swung into another entrance before this one and ran up to them and asked them to calm down and just look at the traffic for a minute.
I counted 61 VEHICLES before we got to the end of the tail back, that of course doesn't include the vehicles that were behind the old chap before he pulled in.
As many of them passed there was a look of absolute hatred on their faces, stressed out to the limit, hours behind their schedules, the air was palpable with frustrated anger.
I asked the guy what he thought of this, he could best be described as Middle England, very dapper and on holiday touring the Highlands. He said that he had been driving for a great many years and who was I to challenge him about his driving, and he had the right to drive in whatever way he chose. The guy in the BMW slammed his door and walked away into the restaurant, I think it was his way of not attacking the older guy!!
If you consider that there was an average of 3 occupants per vehicle, this man upset and greatly inconvenienced at least 183 people, but the worst aspect of it is he did it legally.
If you draw a comparison between myself in my Quattro on a summer's evening cruising at 100mph over the Rannoch Moor just past Tyndrum, overtaking safely, inconveniencing not a soul and endangering no one, but if caught facing an instant ban; and the Citreon man on that day, totally within the law but demonstrating the most appalling ignorance, selfishness and total disregard for every other road user but legal.
Why do we not have, as in many other countries, MINIMUM speed limits enforced; why do we not have, as in many other countries, a law compelling slow moving vehicles to pull in and allow other traffic to pass, enforced by law.
Consider the physical effects; the slower a vehicle is travelling, and the worst case scenario is the one I have just highlighted, dozens of vehicles on and off the throttle, 2nd and 3rd gear for miles, the more it pollutes; the higher you can get the combustion chamber temperature, the cleaner the engine will run.
I have always maintained that we cannot attack the speed camera system just by saying it is unjust or we don't want it. It has to be part of a presentation of an ideal aimed at transforming driving standards by truly understanding ALL of the problems associated with bad driving.
If the laws were in place to prevent drivers behaving in the way I have just detailed above, and if the Roads Authorities had carried out their duties by properly upgrading the road, that incident, and literally hundreds of similar occurrences each year, just simply would not happen.
The only visible road safety policies on that road at the moment are speed camera signs but no cameras, and Trafpol booking speeders.
Don't you think the above gives us an extremely powerful and credible argument for change by offering a correct and viable alternative to the rigid enforcement of speed limits?
When I lived in Skye I had to come down to Glasgow perhaps twice a month to take care of business. In the winter it was no problem, the summer however was a living nightmare.
At that time I still had my old Quattro, a car with awesome ability and overtaking power, and most importantly, tremendous safety.
On one particular occasion I was travelling back up to Skye when I came upon a tailback approximately half way up Loch Lomond side; as it went out of sight round the nearest bend I knew it was considerable. This was mid afternoon, late summer, before 9/11 and mad cow and all the other events that have seriously damaged the tourist trade, so the country was very busy.
Some years ago, after decades of complaints, lives lost in accidents and God knows how many public enquiries, the powers that be finally agreed to properly upgrade the road around Loch Lomond. They caused utter havoc for months, if not years doing so and after they completed it we are still left with a single carriageway, and around two thirds of the way up the Loch is a permanent contra-flow with traffic lights. It is there because the funds for the improvements were grossly mismanaged and they ran out of money to complete the project, they then couldn't blast the rock away to widen the road; so they just left it! Remember this is the main and only trunk route to the Western Isles. The effect of any prohibitive or restrictive driving on this road is greatly enhanced because of this problem.
This day however, was the worst I have ever seen and, despite the fact I could see ahead on a few straight sections I never got to see the front of the queue, the traffic somtimes coming almost to a standstill.
Finally we got to Tyndrum, a small village at a junction with an excellent restaurant. As I approached the car park on the right I could see a chap in his early sixties with his wife in a brand new Citreon blocking the drive into the car park and another younger man in a BMW behind him utterly screaming at him and I made my mind up that I had to do something about this problem and this was a place to start. I swung into another entrance before this one and ran up to them and asked them to calm down and just look at the traffic for a minute.
I counted 61 VEHICLES before we got to the end of the tail back, that of course doesn't include the vehicles that were behind the old chap before he pulled in.
As many of them passed there was a look of absolute hatred on their faces, stressed out to the limit, hours behind their schedules, the air was palpable with frustrated anger.
I asked the guy what he thought of this, he could best be described as Middle England, very dapper and on holiday touring the Highlands. He said that he had been driving for a great many years and who was I to challenge him about his driving, and he had the right to drive in whatever way he chose. The guy in the BMW slammed his door and walked away into the restaurant, I think it was his way of not attacking the older guy!!
If you consider that there was an average of 3 occupants per vehicle, this man upset and greatly inconvenienced at least 183 people, but the worst aspect of it is he did it legally.
If you draw a comparison between myself in my Quattro on a summer's evening cruising at 100mph over the Rannoch Moor just past Tyndrum, overtaking safely, inconveniencing not a soul and endangering no one, but if caught facing an instant ban; and the Citreon man on that day, totally within the law but demonstrating the most appalling ignorance, selfishness and total disregard for every other road user but legal.
Why do we not have, as in many other countries, MINIMUM speed limits enforced; why do we not have, as in many other countries, a law compelling slow moving vehicles to pull in and allow other traffic to pass, enforced by law.
Consider the physical effects; the slower a vehicle is travelling, and the worst case scenario is the one I have just highlighted, dozens of vehicles on and off the throttle, 2nd and 3rd gear for miles, the more it pollutes; the higher you can get the combustion chamber temperature, the cleaner the engine will run.
I have always maintained that we cannot attack the speed camera system just by saying it is unjust or we don't want it. It has to be part of a presentation of an ideal aimed at transforming driving standards by truly understanding ALL of the problems associated with bad driving.
If the laws were in place to prevent drivers behaving in the way I have just detailed above, and if the Roads Authorities had carried out their duties by properly upgrading the road, that incident, and literally hundreds of similar occurrences each year, just simply would not happen.
The only visible road safety policies on that road at the moment are speed camera signs but no cameras, and Trafpol booking speeders.
Don't you think the above gives us an extremely powerful and credible argument for change by offering a correct and viable alternative to the rigid enforcement of speed limits?
IOLAIRE said:
.........if you consider that there was an average of 3 occupants per vehicle, this man upset and greatly inconvenienced at least 183 people, but the worst aspect of it is he did it legally.
If you draw a comparison between myself in my Quattro on a summer's evening cruising at 100mph over the Rannoch Moor just past Tyndrum, overtaking safely, inconveniencing not a soul and endangering no one, but if caught facing an instant ban; and the Citreon man on that day, totally within the law but demonstrating the most appalling ignorance, selfishness and total disregard for every other road user but legal.
Why do we not have, as in many other countries, MINIMUM speed limits enforced; why do we not have, as in many other countries, a law compelling slow moving vehicles to pull in and allow other traffic to pass, enforced by law.
......I have always maintained that we cannot attack the speed camera system just by saying it is unjust or we don't want it. It has to be part of a presentation of an ideal aimed at transforming driving standards by truly understanding ALL of the problems associated with bad driving.
If the laws were in place to prevent drivers behaving in the way I have just detailed above, and if the Roads Authorities had carried out their duties by properly upgrading the road, that incident, and literally hundreds of similar occurrences each year, just simply would not happen.
The only visible road safety policies on that road at the moment are speed camera signs but no cameras, and Trafpol booking speeders.
Don't you think the above gives us an extremely powerful and credible argument for change by offering a correct and viable alternative to the rigid enforcement of speed limits?
IOLAIRE, is this what you have been alluding to in Insurrection recently
GreenV8S said:
Sounds like they were lacking due care and attention, lacking consideration for other road users, below the standard expected of a competant and reasonable driver? Surely there must be existing legislation that covers this without creating more specific laws?
Sorry I'm not responding quickly, I'm trying to do four things at once right now!
If I were a Trafpol in a situation like this I wouldn't hesitate to throw the book at this guy, if for no other reason than to shock him into realising how bad a driver he is. The problem is I have seen this so many times in Scotland I can't remember, and I have never seen any of these people being stopped never mind prosecuted.
The thing is what book do you throw at them? Driving without due care and attention possibly?
If it were a specific offence it would not be a problem, 'specially when you consider how utterly anti social it is.
observer said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Are you proposing a series of laws to deal with matters that could perhaps be taken care of by application of a little common sense and courtesy.
I can't think of much criminal law that would be necessary if common sense and courtesy were universally applied.
That's my opinion too as it happens, but seeing as Iolaire threw his toys out of the pram on an earlier thread because he was questioned by PetrolTed & DVD I thought the need for clarification existed.
For example from the long post I assume that the long queue was entirely caused by the Citroën driver travelling slowly and people were unable to overtake. The post implies that doesn't state it specifically though. Not sure what the blocking of the driveway had to do with the story. I agree about the lamentable state of the road round Lomond though.
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Thursday 23 September 16:52
Flat in Fifth said:
For example from the long post I assume that the long queue was entirely caused by the Citroën driver travelling slowly and people were unable to overtake. The post implies that doesn't state it specifically though. Not sure what the blocking of the driveway had to do with the story. I agree about the lamentable state of the road round Lomond though.
Yes, I'm confused also. Was the Citroen driver blocking a driveway, causing a tailback on the road?
Flat in Fifth said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Are you proposing a series of laws to deal with matters that could perhaps be taken care of by application of a little common sense and courtesy.
I can't think of much criminal law that would be necessary if common sense and courtesy were universally applied.
That's my opinion too as it happens, but seeing as Iolaire threw his toys out of the pram on an earlier thread because he was questioned by PetrolTed & DVD I thought the need for clarification existed.
For example from the long post I assume that the long queue was entirely caused by the Citroën driver travelling slowly and people were unable to overtake. The post implies that doesn't state it specifically though. Not sure what the blocking of the driveway had to do with the story. I agree about the lamentable state of the road round Lomond though.
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Thursday 23 September 16:52
All my toys are still in my pram, I checked them this morning after I gave my little brother a slap for playing with them!
After I had told the Citreon driver I thought he should retire before somebody attacked him I went in and talked to the BMW guy who was calming down over a coffee; he had been stuck behind him the whole way up the Loch. He said several people had managed to overtake him but he wasn't willing to try because the Citreon driver was all over the road.
Like me he lived in the Western Isles and was sick to death of this kind of driving year after year with no one addressing the problem.
There is no doubt that common sense is the required ingredient, but do you think there is the slightest hope in Hell of a driver like this applying any common sense. If you must have applied laws enforced on a daily basis, would it not be preferable to have them applied to this kind of nonsense rather than speeding, that is the whole issue here, it would achieve so much more; and good sensible drivers would have no fear of prosecution, unlike just now with speeding.
By the way, the BMW driver was screaming at him because after driving like that he pulled into the entrance of the car park and just stopped in the middle of it, preventing the BMW and everyone else who wanted to enter from doing so; that was lighting the blue touch paper!
james_j said:
IOLAIRE, I understand, agree and sympathise wilh all you are saying.
James, I understand, agree and sympathise with almost all you are saying. The only point I'm unhappy about is the proposal to introduce a minimum speed limit. To be honest I don't think that would be any more relevant than our current maximum speed limits.
Putting maximum impetus into a driver education campaign is my favourite policy, as this would help to take care of a very wide range of problems.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Flat in Fifth said:
Just so I understand, I wouldn't want to be accused of reading anything into a thread not specifically written.
Are you proposing a series of laws to deal with matters that could perhaps be taken care of by application of a little common sense and courtesy.
It seems to me that drivers like Mr Citroen may be perfect gentlemen in their normal contacts with people, but they simply do not appreciate that their driving style can be appallingly inconsiderate to other road users.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
turbobloke said:
There are minimum speed limits already, but one major problem with all limits, upper or lower, is that as a valid safety-related limiting speed they won't be valid 99.9999999(etc)% of the time. Variable limits, up and down, are one way forward.
Would not variable speed limits be awfully complicated to set up and enforce, and probably inappropriate a good deal of the time?
Advisory limits anyone?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
IOLAIRE said:
Don't you think the above gives us an extremely powerful and credible argument for change by offering a correct and viable alternative to the rigid enforcement of speed limits?
I used to live quite near there and did loads of business up in Kyle of Lochalsh so drove the road on many occasions.
After seeing many serious and fatal accidents on this road before and after its upgrade I would say it doesn't as the driver you describe would abviously not be able to drive the road at any minimum speed limit.
As I said, I know the road very well and would suggest that if someone couldn't manage to pass this driver on the many easy passing places they belong in the same class as the chap that was causing the hold up.
I should think Paul Smith knows this road well and may even agree. Now that would be a first for us.
>> Edited by destroyer on Thursday 23 September 20:43
destroyer said:
I know the road very well and would suggest that if someone couldn't manage to pass this driver on the many easy passing places they belong in the same class as the chap that was causing the hold up.
IOLAIRE said:Do try to keep up with the flow!
he wasn't willing to try because the Citreon driver was all over the road.
Thanks for the clear response Iolaire.
Personally I'm really nervous about suggesting new laws. This lot don't need any encouragement.
As blackstuff and I discussed on another thread, for various reasons, both good and bad, this particular administration seem to make a habit of introducing legislation targeting one particular sector of society whose behaviour seems to "Middle England" selfish, unreasonable, lacking common sense, what have you.
Unfortunately they go completely over the top and the legislation then ensnares and infuriates a massive section of the populace who are quite capable of using the brains they were born with and were never a problem but now find that they are turned into law breakers.
Further infuriation is usually caused by the fact that the law is drafted in such a way as to be effectively unenforceable with the current resources. So the idiots who cause the problem carry on as before, albeit now illegally, to the chagrin of the law abiding who have had their activities curtailed.
Now I do take Iolaire's point that what is needed is sensible and effective enforcement. To bring it to motoring, properly trained traffic plod, properly resourced, properly managed.
On the subject of variable limits, it's not rocket science.
Place I am this week has variable limits. There is a 50 kph limit past a school between 07:00-15:00. Drivers are informed of this by a small plate below the 50 sign. Likewise in the main shopping street, the limit is reduced during the busy part of the day.
Another example is a narrow slightly twisty road along an isthmus. On each side of the road are a series of lakeside summer holiday cottages, only occupied for about 3 months a year. During that 3 months the limit is reduced and signs displayed. Rest of the year the signs are covered up and the equivalent of NSL therefore applies. Common sense.
Personally I'm really nervous about suggesting new laws. This lot don't need any encouragement.
As blackstuff and I discussed on another thread, for various reasons, both good and bad, this particular administration seem to make a habit of introducing legislation targeting one particular sector of society whose behaviour seems to "Middle England" selfish, unreasonable, lacking common sense, what have you.
Unfortunately they go completely over the top and the legislation then ensnares and infuriates a massive section of the populace who are quite capable of using the brains they were born with and were never a problem but now find that they are turned into law breakers.
Further infuriation is usually caused by the fact that the law is drafted in such a way as to be effectively unenforceable with the current resources. So the idiots who cause the problem carry on as before, albeit now illegally, to the chagrin of the law abiding who have had their activities curtailed.
Now I do take Iolaire's point that what is needed is sensible and effective enforcement. To bring it to motoring, properly trained traffic plod, properly resourced, properly managed.
On the subject of variable limits, it's not rocket science.
Place I am this week has variable limits. There is a 50 kph limit past a school between 07:00-15:00. Drivers are informed of this by a small plate below the 50 sign. Likewise in the main shopping street, the limit is reduced during the busy part of the day.
Another example is a narrow slightly twisty road along an isthmus. On each side of the road are a series of lakeside summer holiday cottages, only occupied for about 3 months a year. During that 3 months the limit is reduced and signs displayed. Rest of the year the signs are covered up and the equivalent of NSL therefore applies. Common sense.
turbobloke said:
There are minimum speed limits already, but one major problem with all limits, upper or lower, is that as a valid safety-related limiting speed they won't be valid 99.9999999(etc)% of the time. Variable limits, up and down, are one way forward.
That is a major problem with limits, the upper limit is not always appropriate, and as turbobloke says it is unlikely that minimum limits would be appropriate all the time.
We know upper limits are useless because we all know that millions of people every day in this country break them tens of times a day, we know that accidents per incedent of speeding are very low so what is their purpose? the same applies, imo, to lower limits.
Cheers
Paul
destroyer said:
Don't you think the above gives us an extremely powerful and credible argument for change by offering a correct and viable alternative to the rigid enforcement of speed limits?
I used to live quite near there and did loads of business up in Kyle of Lochalsh so drove the road on many occasions.
After seeing many serious and fatal accidents on this road before and after its upgrade I would say it doesn't as the driver you describe would abviously not be able to drive the road at any minimum speed limit.
As I said, I know the road very well and would suggest that if someone couldn't manage to pass this driver on the many easy passing places they belong in the same class as the chap that was causing the hold up.
I should think Paul Smith knows this road well and may even agree. Now that would be a first for us.
>> Edited by destroyer on Thursday 23 September 20:43
Destroyer I am an advanced driver with 37 years behind the wheel, driving an AUDI QUATTRO TURBO chipped to about 240 horse and I have been driving this road for the same length of time; and believe me, I absolutely do not hang about. I could drive it in my sleep!
Are we talking about the same road?
In the middle of the summer it is an utter nightmare, between guys like the Citreon man, and Dutch tourists with hired caravanettes coming out of laybys at you on the wrong side of the road. Then we have the "won't let you in when you overtake" brigade.
The last summer I lived in Skye FIVE people were killed because of this crap!
We complained and nothing was done until November, when the Traffic Police arrived from Inverness, set up a speed trap outside the straight into Portree and hit 50 locals with speeding tickets and left. Job done. Game over.
GreenV8S said:
Sounds like they were lacking due care and attention, lacking consideration for other road users, below the standard expected of a competant and reasonable driver? Surely there must be existing legislation that covers this without creating more specific laws?
There is legislation but the PC controlled BiB will NOT do anything about it due to Maries and Brownshirtführer types who spout greenie and "safety" lies...
unless of course a village councillor or some such useless bureauprat is inconvenienced then they'll arrive with 3 traffic cars and twos and blues....... cynical moi?
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