NIP - Does this reply have a chance?
Discussion
Had an NIP and have sent the following reply. What do you think my chances are? Fingers crossed....
Dear Sir / Madam,
With reference to the above notice number, I would be grateful if you could supply me with any photographic evidence of the alleged offence so that I may identify the driver. On the day specified, there was more than one driver of the vehicle and unfortunately we are unable to come to any definitive conclusions as to who the driver was.
I would also be grateful if you could provide me with the serial number of the police officer operating the speed measuring equipment. If a civilian operated the measuring equipment then I feel obliged to make you aware that there is no law that states that a civilian can be authorised and empowered to offer the primary evidence in a speeding prosecution. In reference to this I am relying on Barton v Gilbert [1984] R.T.R. 162 - Wilkinson 6.81.
I look forward to receiving the photographs and the operating police officers serial number at your earliest convenience and should there be any problem with this I would appreciate your prompt response.
Yours,
RJBEN
Dear Sir / Madam,
With reference to the above notice number, I would be grateful if you could supply me with any photographic evidence of the alleged offence so that I may identify the driver. On the day specified, there was more than one driver of the vehicle and unfortunately we are unable to come to any definitive conclusions as to who the driver was.
I would also be grateful if you could provide me with the serial number of the police officer operating the speed measuring equipment. If a civilian operated the measuring equipment then I feel obliged to make you aware that there is no law that states that a civilian can be authorised and empowered to offer the primary evidence in a speeding prosecution. In reference to this I am relying on Barton v Gilbert [1984] R.T.R. 162 - Wilkinson 6.81.
I look forward to receiving the photographs and the operating police officers serial number at your earliest convenience and should there be any problem with this I would appreciate your prompt response.
Yours,
RJBEN
rjben,
You may wish to take a look at the following:
Address:
Date:
Re: Alleged Speeding Offence Case Number: ????????????
Dear Sir or Madam
The writer as received communication as the registered keeper of vehicle registration number ???? ??? Of a Notice of Intended Prosecution for an alleged speeding offence case number as listed above.
However, there are several named drivers for the vehicle in question. We do not keep a log or diary for who is driving the vehicle at a given day/date/time. Therefore we request the said photographic evidence in order that identification of the driver can be addressed.
Furthermore, we wish to remind you that the said notice S172 as been served which carries a penalty for failing to comply. S172 of the road traffic act 1988 is a criminal offence. Therefore, under a European Judgement of April 2004 (weh v Austria) a violation of treaties as been committed. It is no longer possible to request one to incriminate oneself by means of penalty in a criminal charge.
Quote from Judgement:
The Court concluded with references to Heaney and McGuinness Paragraph 41, Funke P. 20, 39 and Quinn v Ireland, no.36887/97, 43-46 which states that the use of compulsion is only permitted in civil cases, it also follows from the Court’s case Law that the privilege against self discrimination does not per se prohibit the use of compulsory powers to obtain information outside the context of criminal proceedings against the person concerned. In other words, compulsory powers may be permitted in SOME civil cases but certainly not in Criminal cases.
Moreover, further request is formally made to the status of the speed detection device operator. Can you please verify if the said operator was a serving officer of Law?
We await your reply in the matters.
You may wish to take a look at the following:
Address:
Date:
Re: Alleged Speeding Offence Case Number: ????????????
Dear Sir or Madam
The writer as received communication as the registered keeper of vehicle registration number ???? ??? Of a Notice of Intended Prosecution for an alleged speeding offence case number as listed above.
However, there are several named drivers for the vehicle in question. We do not keep a log or diary for who is driving the vehicle at a given day/date/time. Therefore we request the said photographic evidence in order that identification of the driver can be addressed.
Furthermore, we wish to remind you that the said notice S172 as been served which carries a penalty for failing to comply. S172 of the road traffic act 1988 is a criminal offence. Therefore, under a European Judgement of April 2004 (weh v Austria) a violation of treaties as been committed. It is no longer possible to request one to incriminate oneself by means of penalty in a criminal charge.
Quote from Judgement:
The Court concluded with references to Heaney and McGuinness Paragraph 41, Funke P. 20, 39 and Quinn v Ireland, no.36887/97, 43-46 which states that the use of compulsion is only permitted in civil cases, it also follows from the Court’s case Law that the privilege against self discrimination does not per se prohibit the use of compulsory powers to obtain information outside the context of criminal proceedings against the person concerned. In other words, compulsory powers may be permitted in SOME civil cases but certainly not in Criminal cases.
Moreover, further request is formally made to the status of the speed detection device operator. Can you please verify if the said operator was a serving officer of Law?
We await your reply in the matters.
TDTH1975 said:
Surely you should just ask for the PC number and not state the reasons or they will just give the number of an officer in the area at the time. when they can't produce a PC number, then you state the facts to dispute the reasons for payment.
I agree, but I have no intention of pursuing it, simply don’t has the time, knowledge or resource to go to court. I was really just fishing to see if the powers that be may let it go in fear of exposure.
As I said – probably just pi**ing in the wind!
rjben said:
[quote=rjben]serial number of the police officer
WTF
Street
WTF? Simple mistake there Streetcop. I apologise for the use of ‘Serial Number'.
Thanks for the constructive post.
Cheers,
Rob
[quote]
Hey...you're welcome Rob...anytime mate....
My favourite people are the ones out on the street that don't like what the BiB have done and say out loud.."PC 2345"...while they remember it..
Why FFS...? If you are going to remember a number..why say it out loud...
Muppets......
Street
In the past 3 years I have gotten out of all the NIP's I have received, I don't know if this will work everytime but it certainly worked for me everytime so far and 4 times and counting!!
What I have done each time is as follows,
When you receive the NIP, ignore it, don't send it back dont do anything. twice I've been lucky and received nothing else, no court summons no reminders, nothing, and before you ask, both these ones go back well over 3 years ago.
The other 2 I both recieved court summons for.
When I received the original NIP, for the next 2 weeks or so, everytime I received a bill/bank statement/credit card statement etc I phoned up whoever sent it to me saying, "just phoning because I am a bit worried as I haven't recieved my gas bill/bank statement etc this month and I seem to have a problem with my post at the moment, could you please send it again" next step - ring up your credit card company if you have a card you don't need to use very often, report lost and ask for a new one. when you receive it, wait another week and contact them saying you haven't recieved it and waffle on about your post problems etc, then get them to re send it.
The above will build your evidence up for you.
Next step- court summons finally arrives. phone the court up the day you receive it and act very miffed on the phone saying this is the first you ever heard of it etc, why am i going to court etc. At this satge you are no longer having to go to court for a speeding offence, it is now, failure to provide details of who was driving your car.
Write the court a letter along with ticking the "not guilty box" on the summons explaining that you would like to know why you are being summons as you never received anything from the police at all and act very puzzled and bemused by it all.
You will then get given a trial date at the Magistrates.
On one occasion, the first time, I got to court and was hancing a letter by the magistrates which had been sent the day before from the CPS stating that they would be discontinuing the case and all matters have now been dropped, nice one thanks, and £150 was claimed by me for my so called expenses so all in all £150 up! thanks.
Second occasion, magistrates were convinced I was full of Sh*t, and rightly so, i was. When I said i had never recieved the NIP they started waffling on about the magistrates code etc etc and that any letter sent out by regular mail by the police was deemed to have been received by the defendant unless there were grounds that prove there were problems with my post. Well, having already conveniently thought about this and knowing that they would probabl;y come up with this I take you back to the beginning of this post, collecting your fake evidence!! I told the magistrates in the court that I had had huge problems with my mail and that I would like to request an ajournement of the case in order i may be able to gather my evidence to support my case. this was granted and set for the following month, in the second trial, i produced all the evidence I had, it took them all of 2 minutes to find me not guilty and sent me on my way with another claim form for all my costs.
It took me an hour of work to do the letters etc and a few hours off work for court, hardly much effort and I made a profit out of it all too.
It may not work everytime, but if i get anymore I am sure as hell doing this again. 2 of my friends have done exactly the same as this following my advice and both had the same results I did.
Maybe I have a slight edge in the court due to the fact that I am a salesman and basically a proffesional liar for a living, so it may well help a bit if you can lie convincingly without breaking into a sweat. I might add, on all three occasions, I wore a suit, I was very humble in the court room and polite and just acted very confused as to why i was there in the first place and how I couldn't understand it had come this far and was pleading not guilty because I had no other choice, i explained that I couldn#t plead guilty to something I had no knowledge about, after all, I had no idea why the police had even asked me in the first place for the information as I never recieved the NIP ;-)
What I have done each time is as follows,
When you receive the NIP, ignore it, don't send it back dont do anything. twice I've been lucky and received nothing else, no court summons no reminders, nothing, and before you ask, both these ones go back well over 3 years ago.
The other 2 I both recieved court summons for.
When I received the original NIP, for the next 2 weeks or so, everytime I received a bill/bank statement/credit card statement etc I phoned up whoever sent it to me saying, "just phoning because I am a bit worried as I haven't recieved my gas bill/bank statement etc this month and I seem to have a problem with my post at the moment, could you please send it again" next step - ring up your credit card company if you have a card you don't need to use very often, report lost and ask for a new one. when you receive it, wait another week and contact them saying you haven't recieved it and waffle on about your post problems etc, then get them to re send it.
The above will build your evidence up for you.
Next step- court summons finally arrives. phone the court up the day you receive it and act very miffed on the phone saying this is the first you ever heard of it etc, why am i going to court etc. At this satge you are no longer having to go to court for a speeding offence, it is now, failure to provide details of who was driving your car.
Write the court a letter along with ticking the "not guilty box" on the summons explaining that you would like to know why you are being summons as you never received anything from the police at all and act very puzzled and bemused by it all.
You will then get given a trial date at the Magistrates.
On one occasion, the first time, I got to court and was hancing a letter by the magistrates which had been sent the day before from the CPS stating that they would be discontinuing the case and all matters have now been dropped, nice one thanks, and £150 was claimed by me for my so called expenses so all in all £150 up! thanks.
Second occasion, magistrates were convinced I was full of Sh*t, and rightly so, i was. When I said i had never recieved the NIP they started waffling on about the magistrates code etc etc and that any letter sent out by regular mail by the police was deemed to have been received by the defendant unless there were grounds that prove there were problems with my post. Well, having already conveniently thought about this and knowing that they would probabl;y come up with this I take you back to the beginning of this post, collecting your fake evidence!! I told the magistrates in the court that I had had huge problems with my mail and that I would like to request an ajournement of the case in order i may be able to gather my evidence to support my case. this was granted and set for the following month, in the second trial, i produced all the evidence I had, it took them all of 2 minutes to find me not guilty and sent me on my way with another claim form for all my costs.
It took me an hour of work to do the letters etc and a few hours off work for court, hardly much effort and I made a profit out of it all too.
It may not work everytime, but if i get anymore I am sure as hell doing this again. 2 of my friends have done exactly the same as this following my advice and both had the same results I did.
Maybe I have a slight edge in the court due to the fact that I am a salesman and basically a proffesional liar for a living, so it may well help a bit if you can lie convincingly without breaking into a sweat. I might add, on all three occasions, I wore a suit, I was very humble in the court room and polite and just acted very confused as to why i was there in the first place and how I couldn't understand it had come this far and was pleading not guilty because I had no other choice, i explained that I couldn#t plead guilty to something I had no knowledge about, after all, I had no idea why the police had even asked me in the first place for the information as I never recieved the NIP ;-)
Streetcop said:
My favourite people are the ones out on the street that don't like what the BiB have done and say out loud.."PC 2345"...while they remember it..
Why FFS...? If you are going to remember a number..why say it out loud...
Street
Perhaps it is intended to cause the officer(s) in question to spend some time quaking in their boots wondering what sort of disciplinary action is about to befall them. Fat chance I imagine.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Cen,
Thanks, comments taken on board.
I pretty gutted as I've just found out that my first 3 points don't come off for another 9 months. So now I'm going to have 6 in total. I think this is very unfair when I consider the state of the driving that I witness on our roads in general
I guess it's time for a jammer.
Cheers,
Rob
Thanks, comments taken on board.
I pretty gutted as I've just found out that my first 3 points don't come off for another 9 months. So now I'm going to have 6 in total. I think this is very unfair when I consider the state of the driving that I witness on our roads in general
I guess it's time for a jammer.
Cheers,
Rob
I'm probably tempting fate here but.......
After I sent back the reply mentioned above I received a letter along with the photographic evidence (not showing my face) and the form to supply driver details. Filled in my details and waited....and waited...and have not heard anything. I think I'll be in the clear in about a week or so (6 month rule?).
So, do you think that (if I get away with it) it's down to an admin error or that perhaps there is some weight to the argument used?
After I sent back the reply mentioned above I received a letter along with the photographic evidence (not showing my face) and the form to supply driver details. Filled in my details and waited....and waited...and have not heard anything. I think I'll be in the clear in about a week or so (6 month rule?).
So, do you think that (if I get away with it) it's down to an admin error or that perhaps there is some weight to the argument used?
Streetcop said:
Don't worry Rob....the others' day will come...they get their points or disqualifications....
Drive safe,
Street
No it wont.
The micra that almost took me out on a marked 3 lane roundabout by cutting across 3 lanes with glazed look in eye wasnt speeding
The nobhead in the BMW that pulled out in front of me almost point blank (without indicating
) wasnt speeding The git that almost knocked me off my motorcycle by suddenly swerving into a right hand filter lane that I was already occupying wasnt speeding
The old couple that dinged the front of my car by straightlining a two lane marked roundabout were not speeding
I have hundreds more but even when they do get caught, it will probably be for speeding anyway so the fact they are total incompetant dangourous c
ts makes no odds. If I fitted a video camera in my car and caught all these events - I would probably be told to f**k off at the local police station - but im sure if I am caught on their video laser cameras SPEEDING all hell with break loose.
Speeding - The only punishable crime of the century
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