What is all the hoo ha about PRISM?
Discussion
Is anyone really surprised that the USA, UK and probably every other country are monitoring internet, email, skype and phone calls?
Hague can waffle all day that nothing illegal is happening. What a load of Bo***cks.
If you do not want the government to read what you have written then buy PGP and encrypt it. At least make the snoops work for the info.
Hague can waffle all day that nothing illegal is happening. What a load of Bo***cks.
If you do not want the government to read what you have written then buy PGP and encrypt it. At least make the snoops work for the info.
In 1999, Scott McNeely - founder of sun Microsystems was quoted as saying about the internet "You have zero privacy - Get over it"
He was right - there is nothing you can do to keep anything secret indefinitely. http://www.pcworld.com/article/16331/article.html
What I find concerning is the quality of the NSA's PRISM powerpoints - they are rubbish, and use an upside-down version of an image created by Adam Hart-Davis as a logo. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/12/nsa_logo_s...
He was right - there is nothing you can do to keep anything secret indefinitely. http://www.pcworld.com/article/16331/article.html
What I find concerning is the quality of the NSA's PRISM powerpoints - they are rubbish, and use an upside-down version of an image created by Adam Hart-Davis as a logo. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/12/nsa_logo_s...
People want protecting from bad people and when someone bad does something they are up in arms about why the government didn't stop it. However if the government actually do anything to try and prevent such events people are up in arms about their privacy.
If you want security you have to give up some freedom.
If you want security you have to give up some freedom.
Cue Benjamin Franklin's observation that those who give up their freedom to obtain security deserve neither freedom nor security.
I think that we should constantly question why the State wants access to our communications, and should not be inclined to believe that the State and its often fallible agents know best.
I think that we should constantly question why the State wants access to our communications, and should not be inclined to believe that the State and its often fallible agents know best.
I don't consider my right to privacy a freedom.
Yes, it's nice to pretend I have it, but it's a far cry from what Lincoln was talking about.
We live in a free state.
Any one of us can do pretty much anything we want without restriction.
(Save perhaps personal wealth and ability).
There are too many wannabe freedom fighters who don't have anything left to fight
We've got equal rights, a fairly good police force and a benevolent queen.
We don't have martial law, apartheid, religious persecution or an (excessively) corrupt government
We do have a small number of terrorist nutjobs trying to kill us.
And we have a very good security service trying to stop them.
Let's not waste time making the security services into the bad guys here.
I'm quite happy to let the security services read my emails if it prevents another 7/7.
It doesn't effect my freedom or liberty at all.
Yes, it's nice to pretend I have it, but it's a far cry from what Lincoln was talking about.
We live in a free state.
Any one of us can do pretty much anything we want without restriction.
(Save perhaps personal wealth and ability).
There are too many wannabe freedom fighters who don't have anything left to fight
We've got equal rights, a fairly good police force and a benevolent queen.
We don't have martial law, apartheid, religious persecution or an (excessively) corrupt government
We do have a small number of terrorist nutjobs trying to kill us.
And we have a very good security service trying to stop them.
Let's not waste time making the security services into the bad guys here.
I'm quite happy to let the security services read my emails if it prevents another 7/7.
It doesn't effect my freedom or liberty at all.
Mr Will said:
The question is not "do you trust the government". The question is "Do you trust this government, and every future government we will ever have".
Once hard-fought liberties are given up, they can seldom be reclaimed.
I agree.Once hard-fought liberties are given up, they can seldom be reclaimed.
But on that basis we must accept that bad people will do bad things and not use phrases like:
"this must never be allowed to happemn again" when they do.
Snowboy said:
I'm quite happy to let the security services read my emails if it prevents another 7/7.
It doesn't effect my freedom or liberty at all.
Excellent- you let them read yours but I don't want them to read mine. AFAIC my privacy takes precedence over their wish to snoop 'just in case'.It doesn't effect my freedom or liberty at all.
Do I trust future governments?
Yes I do.
Because we will have voted for them.
If things get so twisted that we end up with a Nazi/Shia/EDF government then the country will be screwed anyway.
Chances are by that point GCHQ would have been self destructed and I'll be living as a soldier of fortune in the London underground.
Yes I do.
Because we will have voted for them.
If things get so twisted that we end up with a Nazi/Shia/EDF government then the country will be screwed anyway.
Chances are by that point GCHQ would have been self destructed and I'll be living as a soldier of fortune in the London underground.
Rovinghawk said:
Excellent- you let them read yours but I don't want them to read mine. AFAIC my privacy takes precedence over their wish to snoop 'just in case'.
Would you apply the same theory about the emails of a couple of blokes deciding which train to blow up for 'the cause'.Is their right to privacy more important than the security services snooping?
Would the people on that train take comfort in the fact that no laws were broken when trying to prevent the attack?
Apologies for the long quote, but I think this snippet from another discussion I was reading is worth including here:
We need to beware the ongoing creep towards a surveillance state. We should control the government, not vice versa and the freedom to "speak" without fear is vital to that.
161719 said:
I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:
1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.
Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.
With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, f
k it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.
3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.
4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fk you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fking wound on my leg?"
"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.
Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.
You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.
This all happened in the country where I live.
You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.
Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?
You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?
Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.
I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
(from http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1fv4...1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.
Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.
With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, f
k it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.
4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "f
k you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fking wound on my leg?""Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.
Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.
You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.
This all happened in the country where I live.
You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.
Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?
You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?
Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.
I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
We need to beware the ongoing creep towards a surveillance state. We should control the government, not vice versa and the freedom to "speak" without fear is vital to that.
In 2007, I attended a meeting with the head of MI5, head of MI6 and the deputy head of GCHQ. The subject discussed in length was the monitoring of communications, both domestic and foreign. To cut a long story short, they were quite open about their methods and why they do monitor communications. If you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.
1e35 said:
What I find concerning is the quality of the NSA's PRISM powerpoints - they are rubbish, and use an upside-down version of an image created by Adam Hart-Davis as a logo. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/12/nsa_logo_s...
Would that be actionable if used without permission?"We should control the government"
We do.
If we don't like them we vote them out.
If we really don't like what they do we protest.
(Poll tax being a classic example)
The majority of people don't care about the security services checking their emails.
We live (broadly) in a democracy.
So, the people get what the people want.
I do believe that when someone says 'We should control the government' the 'we' they refer to is those with similar opinions, not everyone who disagrees with them.
But, the truth is 'We' as a population don't care that much about a bit of govt. sponsored snooping.
We think it's all a bit James Bond, and we like James Bond.
We do.
If we don't like them we vote them out.
If we really don't like what they do we protest.
(Poll tax being a classic example)
The majority of people don't care about the security services checking their emails.
We live (broadly) in a democracy.
So, the people get what the people want.
I do believe that when someone says 'We should control the government' the 'we' they refer to is those with similar opinions, not everyone who disagrees with them.
But, the truth is 'We' as a population don't care that much about a bit of govt. sponsored snooping.
We think it's all a bit James Bond, and we like James Bond.
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