Bus driver - legal advice - defective bus
Discussion
Good evening.
I work as bus driver for a large, reputable bus operator.
Normally, the buses are maintained to a high standard, with a good defect reporting and rectifying (sp?) procedure, and i'm normally quite a happy employee.
This afternoon I was allocated a bus, which had a brake ECU failure, and a large red "stop" warning triangle on the dash.
I radio'd my controllers, reported the defect, and requested another bus. I was told that, it is a running, servicable defect, that has been reccuring for 3 weeks. I was then told that engineering had instructed me to carry on in service.
I refused, on the grounds that, when i am driving, i am responsible for the vehicle, the safety of my passengers, the safety of other road users, and pedestrians etc.
I was then told, that because the engineers have given it the green light, they are legaly responsible if anything was to happen.
I declined again, on the grounds that it is my consciounce (sp?) If someone is hurt.
45 minutes later, a disgruntled engineer turns up with a new bus, asking why I refused to drive it. I explained, and was told that he will be putting me on report.
I asked if I was within my rights to refuse to drive it if I felt it was unsafe, to which he agreed, but still insisted I was in the wrong.
Now, i've half a mind to ring VOSA and get them involved, as im sure they would agree with me, but I do not want to go too far with this for no reason, if I can appeal it in house and get the report lifted, then that would be a succesfull conclusion for me.
What I am asking, is , was I correct to stay firm wih my refusal. Is my engineering department asking me to do something illegal?
I work as bus driver for a large, reputable bus operator.
Normally, the buses are maintained to a high standard, with a good defect reporting and rectifying (sp?) procedure, and i'm normally quite a happy employee.
This afternoon I was allocated a bus, which had a brake ECU failure, and a large red "stop" warning triangle on the dash.
I radio'd my controllers, reported the defect, and requested another bus. I was told that, it is a running, servicable defect, that has been reccuring for 3 weeks. I was then told that engineering had instructed me to carry on in service.
I refused, on the grounds that, when i am driving, i am responsible for the vehicle, the safety of my passengers, the safety of other road users, and pedestrians etc.
I was then told, that because the engineers have given it the green light, they are legaly responsible if anything was to happen.
I declined again, on the grounds that it is my consciounce (sp?) If someone is hurt.
45 minutes later, a disgruntled engineer turns up with a new bus, asking why I refused to drive it. I explained, and was told that he will be putting me on report.
I asked if I was within my rights to refuse to drive it if I felt it was unsafe, to which he agreed, but still insisted I was in the wrong.
Now, i've half a mind to ring VOSA and get them involved, as im sure they would agree with me, but I do not want to go too far with this for no reason, if I can appeal it in house and get the report lifted, then that would be a succesfull conclusion for me.
What I am asking, is , was I correct to stay firm wih my refusal. Is my engineering department asking me to do something illegal?
Edited by FussyFez on Friday 14th June 21:31
A few years ago now I had a similar issue with a 12 tonne emergency services vehicle that every now and again suffered a random brake failure.
It happened with several different drivers, each of whom reported it, yet our vehicle workshops were unable to find any fault in the system whatsoever...
Eventually, having almost put the vehicle through the doors of the garage when the brake pedal went right to the floor at 10mph, I refused to drive it altogether.
An alternative driver was found, I was put on report and the vehicle remained in service.
A few days later, the local paper carried a front page story about the vehicle (no idea how they found out...
) and the employer was forced to withdraw it from service until it could be rectified.
Finally, due to its age and the 'difficulty finding parts' the vehicle was scrapped however I was still put through a discipline hearing where I was given a "verbal caution for failing to adhere to laid down procedures".
Years later, in conversation with a VOSA inspector he intimated that my first step should have been to contact them and let them deal with it.
It happened with several different drivers, each of whom reported it, yet our vehicle workshops were unable to find any fault in the system whatsoever...
Eventually, having almost put the vehicle through the doors of the garage when the brake pedal went right to the floor at 10mph, I refused to drive it altogether.
An alternative driver was found, I was put on report and the vehicle remained in service.
A few days later, the local paper carried a front page story about the vehicle (no idea how they found out...
) and the employer was forced to withdraw it from service until it could be rectified.Finally, due to its age and the 'difficulty finding parts' the vehicle was scrapped however I was still put through a discipline hearing where I was given a "verbal caution for failing to adhere to laid down procedures".
Years later, in conversation with a VOSA inspector he intimated that my first step should have been to contact them and let them deal with it.
I work for a large reputable company that operates trucks and we would not drive or be expected to drive a truck if such a warning came up, in fact if we get any defect that would affect the legal operation of the truck we don't take it out on threat of disciplinary action.
What would happen if you got stopped by VOSA on a roadside check (don't know if buses get pulled the same as trucks) and that fault was showing, you'd be in deep do doos and so would your company.
What would happen if you got stopped by VOSA on a roadside check (don't know if buses get pulled the same as trucks) and that fault was showing, you'd be in deep do doos and so would your company.
Yes, you are. Totally correct.
I bet no 'engineer' put in writing that he had passed your bus safe.
You would be totally on the hook if an accident happened. Make no mistake.
Do you have Union membership? Whilst I'm a totally right wing Leftie, this is the sort of situation that requires back up. Your Union will put your employer straight!
I fookin hate Unions BTW but have been a member of Unite for the past 10 years.
Work that one out LOL!
I bet no 'engineer' put in writing that he had passed your bus safe.
You would be totally on the hook if an accident happened. Make no mistake.
Do you have Union membership? Whilst I'm a totally right wing Leftie, this is the sort of situation that requires back up. Your Union will put your employer straight!
I fookin hate Unions BTW but have been a member of Unite for the past 10 years.
Work that one out LOL!
FussyFez said:
Good evening.
I work as bus driver for a large, reputable bus operator.
Normally, the buses are maintained to a high standard, with a good defect reporting and rectifying (sp?) procedure, and i'm normally quite a happy employee.
This afternoon I was allocated a bus, which had a brake ECU failure, and a large red "stop" warning triangle on the dash.
I radio'd my controllers, reported the defect, and requested another bus. I was told that, it is a running, servicable defect, that has been reccuring for 3 weeks. I was then told that engineering had instructed me to carry on in service.
I refused, on the grounds that, when i am driving, i am responsible for the vehicle, the safety of my passengers, the safety of other road users, and pedestrians etc.
I was then told, that because the engineers have given it the green light, they are legaly responsible if anything was to happen.
I declined again, on the grounds that it is my consciounce (sp?) If someone is hurt.
45 minutes later, a disgruntled engineer turns up with a new bus, asking why I refused to drive it. I explained, and was told that he will be putting me on report.
I asked if I was within my rights to refuse to drive it if I felt it was unsafe, to which he agreed, but still insisted I was in the wrong.
Now, i've half a mind to ring VOSA and get them involved, as im sure they would agree with me, but I do not want to go too far with this for no reason, if I can appeal it in house and get the report lifted, then that would be a succesfull conclusion for me.
What I am asking, is , was I correct to stay firm wih my refusal. Is my engineering department asking me to do something illegal?
I work as bus driver for a large, reputable bus operator.
Normally, the buses are maintained to a high standard, with a good defect reporting and rectifying (sp?) procedure, and i'm normally quite a happy employee.
This afternoon I was allocated a bus, which had a brake ECU failure, and a large red "stop" warning triangle on the dash.
I radio'd my controllers, reported the defect, and requested another bus. I was told that, it is a running, servicable defect, that has been reccuring for 3 weeks. I was then told that engineering had instructed me to carry on in service.
I refused, on the grounds that, when i am driving, i am responsible for the vehicle, the safety of my passengers, the safety of other road users, and pedestrians etc.
I was then told, that because the engineers have given it the green light, they are legaly responsible if anything was to happen.
I declined again, on the grounds that it is my consciounce (sp?) If someone is hurt.
45 minutes later, a disgruntled engineer turns up with a new bus, asking why I refused to drive it. I explained, and was told that he will be putting me on report.
I asked if I was within my rights to refuse to drive it if I felt it was unsafe, to which he agreed, but still insisted I was in the wrong.
Now, i've half a mind to ring VOSA and get them involved, as im sure they would agree with me, but I do not want to go too far with this for no reason, if I can appeal it in house and get the report lifted, then that would be a succesfull conclusion for me.
What I am asking, is , was I correct to stay firm wih my refusal. Is my engineering department asking me to do something illegal?
Edited by FussyFez on Friday 14th June 21:31
Thankyou all for the rapid replies. To be honest, I kind of already knew that they are in the wrong. But im only just over a year out of their training school, so it can be intimidating trying to put your foot down with suh a large company, with a very busy training shool providing willing replacements, if they were to see my services as no longer needed.
As much as I would like to speak to VOSA, I value my job, and the job's of my workmates too much.
Edit, TVR, point being? I know this is PH, but really?
As much as I would like to speak to VOSA, I value my job, and the job's of my workmates too much.
Edit, TVR, point being? I know this is PH, but really?
Edited by FussyFez on Friday 14th June 22:10
Mastodon2 said:
Keep the VOSA option in your back pocket unless they refuse to put this "report" issue to bed. What does "report" mean, how does it affect your permanent record with the company and could it lead to disciplinary procedures?
As far as i'm aware, it means, if I cause any more lost mileage due to refusing to drive a bus they deem safe, I will face disciplinary procedures, but im not 100%.And to the other poster, yes i am a member of unite, and friends with our rep.
Edited by FussyFez on Friday 14th June 22:24
I am no expert but from a purely common sense perspective I think you are well within your rights. As others have pointed out you can bet your last dollar that if you'd gone out and crashed you'd be hung out to dry.
Does the Engineer have the power to put you on report? Surely this is down to your line manager. It sounds to me like one of the old timers getting grumpy for being held to account and making empty threats.
Does the Engineer have the power to put you on report? Surely this is down to your line manager. It sounds to me like one of the old timers getting grumpy for being held to account and making empty threats.
TVR1 said:
Errm, sorry Fussy, not quite understanding? My suggestion to get a Union involved or that I hate them? Confused.
I feel rather embarrassed and must apologise.I'm tired, was reading the replies without reading names, and noticed the full quote with nothing else, and presumed it was a "im gunna quote for the sake of it so the OP can't edit/delete"
Again, my most sincere apologies.
waterwonder said:
I am no expert but from a purely common sense perspective I think you are well within your rights. As others have pointed out you can bet your last dollar that if you'd gone out and crashed you'd be hung out to dry.
Does the Engineer have the power to put you on report? Surely this is down to your line manager. It sounds to me like one of the old timers getting grumpy for being held to account and making empty threats.
I think he has the power, as he is a senior in the department, and it was (by his own admition) he who signed it off as safe.Does the Engineer have the power to put you on report? Surely this is down to your line manager. It sounds to me like one of the old timers getting grumpy for being held to account and making empty threats.
I shall be in an hour early tomorrow, to get the ball rolling with talking to managers and union reps.
Edited by FussyFez on Friday 14th June 22:47
FussyFez said:
I feel rather embarrassed and must apologise.
I'm tired, was reading the replies without reading names, and noticed the full quote with nothing else, and presumed it was a "im gunna quote for the sake of it so the OP can't edit/delete"
Again, my most sincere apologies.
Fussy, no probs. I'm tired, was reading the replies without reading names, and noticed the full quote with nothing else, and presumed it was a "im gunna quote for the sake of it so the OP can't edit/delete"
Again, my most sincere apologies.
I'm on mobile so can't delete. I was trying to reply rather than quote but it seems I have. I shall delete when I can log on to the full site, if you wish.
However, my suggestion still stands; if you are not a Union member, in this situation you should be.
Historically, Unions have taken the piss but initially they were set up to protect workers from this type of crap. Again, I'm a right wing, conservative. I can fight my own corner. But.......
Sometimes you can't,
That's why you need some 'bad boys' backing you up.
FussyFez said:
Good evening.
I work as bus driver for a large, reputable bus operator.
Normally, the buses are maintained to a high standard, with a good defect reporting and rectifying (sp?) procedure, and i'm normally quite a happy employee.
This afternoon I was allocated a bus, which had a brake ECU failure, and a large red "stop" warning triangle on the dash.
I radio'd my controllers, reported the defect, and requested another bus. I was told that, it is a running, servicable defect, that has been reccuring for 3 weeks. I was then told that engineering had instructed me to carry on in service.
I refused, on the grounds that, when i am driving, i am responsible for the vehicle, the safety of my passengers, the safety of other road users, and pedestrians etc.
I was then told, that because the engineers have given it the green light, they are legaly responsible if anything was to happen.
I declined again, on the grounds that it is my consciounce (sp?) If someone is hurt.
45 minutes later, a disgruntled engineer turns up with a new bus, asking why I refused to drive it. I explained, and was told that he will be putting me on report.
I asked if I was within my rights to refuse to drive it if I felt it was unsafe, to which he agreed, but still insisted I was in the wrong.
Now, i've half a mind to ring VOSA and get them involved, as im sure they would agree with me, but I do not want to go too far with this for no reason, if I can appeal it in house and get the report lifted, then that would be a succesfull conclusion for me.
What I am asking, is , was I correct to stay firm wih my refusal. Is my engineering department asking me to do something illegal?
I am not expert in this but think you were correct morally , and probably legally .I work as bus driver for a large, reputable bus operator.
Normally, the buses are maintained to a high standard, with a good defect reporting and rectifying (sp?) procedure, and i'm normally quite a happy employee.
This afternoon I was allocated a bus, which had a brake ECU failure, and a large red "stop" warning triangle on the dash.
I radio'd my controllers, reported the defect, and requested another bus. I was told that, it is a running, servicable defect, that has been reccuring for 3 weeks. I was then told that engineering had instructed me to carry on in service.
I refused, on the grounds that, when i am driving, i am responsible for the vehicle, the safety of my passengers, the safety of other road users, and pedestrians etc.
I was then told, that because the engineers have given it the green light, they are legaly responsible if anything was to happen.
I declined again, on the grounds that it is my consciounce (sp?) If someone is hurt.
45 minutes later, a disgruntled engineer turns up with a new bus, asking why I refused to drive it. I explained, and was told that he will be putting me on report.
I asked if I was within my rights to refuse to drive it if I felt it was unsafe, to which he agreed, but still insisted I was in the wrong.
Now, i've half a mind to ring VOSA and get them involved, as im sure they would agree with me, but I do not want to go too far with this for no reason, if I can appeal it in house and get the report lifted, then that would be a succesfull conclusion for me.
What I am asking, is , was I correct to stay firm wih my refusal. Is my engineering department asking me to do something illegal?
Edited by FussyFez on Friday 14th June 21:31
Are you a member of a trade union ?
I would think this is something you should take up with your union rep urgently .
What exactly was the message on the dash? The engineers have probably investigated the fault and it's the message coming up for no reason not anything more serious than that. However if that is the case it doesn't sound like they explained it to you very well.
I would have a quiet chat with the union guy but nothing else. Much of the time these people blow hot air and say they're going to report you but then never do. You could cause bigger problems for yourself by talking to management about it now.
There's a chance we work for the same company BTW. You've got bigger balls than me, I probably would have driven it.
I would have a quiet chat with the union guy but nothing else. Much of the time these people blow hot air and say they're going to report you but then never do. You could cause bigger problems for yourself by talking to management about it now.
There's a chance we work for the same company BTW. You've got bigger balls than me, I probably would have driven it.
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