Who legally owns car? possible/ theft fraud
Discussion
Hi, this is a long shot but I am trying everything I can. I sold my car for £8 k 2 weekends ago to a large well known dealership who I have personally bought and traded in numerous vehicles with. It was a Saturday afternoon so they couldn't process the payment and said their finance team would transfer the money on the Monday morning and it would take 3-4 days. I was given a handwritten receipt saying cash sale funds to be transferred ( details of car and date etc.)
I gave them the lot book, signed the v5/3c and I kept that section so I could send it to the Dvla. I haven't sent this (I know this is not proof of ownership)
One of the sales guys on the Monday tells me they are delighted that they have sold my car already!
No payment arrived.
Then the bombshell they are in administration.
I then get a cheque for the full amount from the owner but in the company name through another bank, not the bank, which the administration was in. The cheque bounces!
The administrators are trying to find if the car was actually sold, did it go through the books, is it hidden somewhere etc etc. i
I would really appreciate advice on who owns the car if he never paid me for it and I still have the section of the v5c. Is there any type of consumer protection?
I gave them the lot book, signed the v5/3c and I kept that section so I could send it to the Dvla. I haven't sent this (I know this is not proof of ownership)
One of the sales guys on the Monday tells me they are delighted that they have sold my car already!
No payment arrived.
Then the bombshell they are in administration.
I then get a cheque for the full amount from the owner but in the company name through another bank, not the bank, which the administration was in. The cheque bounces!
The administrators are trying to find if the car was actually sold, did it go through the books, is it hidden somewhere etc etc. i
I would really appreciate advice on who owns the car if he never paid me for it and I still have the section of the v5c. Is there any type of consumer protection?
You do (assuming you can prove title which, as you say, will need more than just the V5C). As you received no payment there was no consideration therefore the contract was not completed. The administrators control the company from the date of their appointment. When was it, before or after the 'sale' of your car to the dealer? If the former they will have a strong vested interest in finding out where it is. Is the receipt on the masthead of the company that is in administration? If so the director or whoever gave you the dodgy cheque could be in serious trouble because he knows that he has no power to act once the administrators have been appointed.
As for the cheque on the other bank, I'm not sure what you mean. If it was Bank A which called in the administrators and the dealer also has an account with Bank B it's irrelevant. The director(s)/authorised signatories have no power to sign cheques on ANY company account from when the appointment took effect.
If the dealer has already sold you car on and taken money for it things could get messy fairly quickly.
As for the cheque on the other bank, I'm not sure what you mean. If it was Bank A which called in the administrators and the dealer also has an account with Bank B it's irrelevant. The director(s)/authorised signatories have no power to sign cheques on ANY company account from when the appointment took effect.
If the dealer has already sold you car on and taken money for it things could get messy fairly quickly.
Hi thanks for the response.
In regards to the bank, they tried to assure me the cheque wouldn't bounce because it was from another bank and not the bank who called in the administrators.
The car was "bought" before the administrators, hand written receipt but on headed paper receipt book. Then the cheque was written after administrators called in but before the company was officially put into administration.
My gut feeling is it was sold for cash off the books so the owner could get some money before everything was frozen.
I am really struggling to work out if I actually still own it!
In regards to the bank, they tried to assure me the cheque wouldn't bounce because it was from another bank and not the bank who called in the administrators.
The car was "bought" before the administrators, hand written receipt but on headed paper receipt book. Then the cheque was written after administrators called in but before the company was officially put into administration.
My gut feeling is it was sold for cash off the books so the owner could get some money before everything was frozen.
I am really struggling to work out if I actually still own it!
From what you say, it appears that the sale was complete and the car is no longer yours. The company's directors may or may not have committed some insolvency related offences, but that won't assist you. The Administrators will be trying to realise the assets for the benefit of the bank that appointed them, which will rank ahead of you as a creditor, and to cover their fees.
The bank used is irrelevant, as the cheque bounced.
The bank used is irrelevant, as the cheque bounced.
Breadvan72 said:
Unless you expressly reserved title pending payment, the contract could have been complete when you handed over the car. The promise of payment was consideration. In that event you may be left with the scant consolation of a claim against an insolvent company.
Ah, if so, I stand corrected. The question is did the OP take this precaution? I suspect not as most people don't think of doing so with a large dealership as you're not expecting the sword of Damocles to fall on your neck. Avondhu1948 said:
Hi thanks for the response.
In regards to the bank, they tried to assure me the cheque wouldn't bounce because it was from another bank and not the bank who called in the administrators.
The car was "bought" before the administrators, hand written receipt but on headed paper receipt book. Then the cheque was written after administrators called in but before the company was officially put into administration.
My gut feeling is it was sold for cash off the books so the owner could get some money before everything was frozen.
I am really struggling to work out if I actually still own it!
As the appointment date was after the 'sale' I think the dealer has done you up like a kipper. Your only hope as I see it is the administrators can locate the car. If the dealer hasn't sold it on (which wouldn't surprise me in the least btw) the administrators have custodianship of it. As Breadvan said their duty is to realise those assets for the benefit of the creditors, so they may be willing to sell it back to you. It would likely be a more attractive option than taking the full hit. In regards to the bank, they tried to assure me the cheque wouldn't bounce because it was from another bank and not the bank who called in the administrators.
The car was "bought" before the administrators, hand written receipt but on headed paper receipt book. Then the cheque was written after administrators called in but before the company was officially put into administration.
My gut feeling is it was sold for cash off the books so the owner could get some money before everything was frozen.
I am really struggling to work out if I actually still own it!
Breadvan72 said:
Unless you expressly reserved title pending payment, the contract could have been complete when you handed over the car. The promise of payment was consideration. In that event you may be left with the scant consolation of a claim against an insolvent company.
By the look of it, the buyer had no intention of paying.Our seller has been induced into the contract on the basis of the buyer's representation that they will pay.
Why can't the seller can rescind the contract?
Upon recission, title reverts to the seller.
I suppose the key thing to do in practice is to locate and get possession of the car and then argue about title later...
Proving that, at the time of the contract, the buyer did not intend to pay would be difficult. The member of staff who dealt with the OP may have had no idea that the company was about to enter administration. If the OP dealt with the owner and/or MD of the company, he might have more of a shout on this.
It would be most unwise to seek to grab the car, absent a reservation of title clause, or a very clear case based on fraudulent misrepresentation. Doing so might result in undesirable collar feelage.
It would be most unwise to seek to grab the car, absent a reservation of title clause, or a very clear case based on fraudulent misrepresentation. Doing so might result in undesirable collar feelage.
Is it this company?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-bus...
Name and Shame rules haven't been broken as the information is factual.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-bus...
Name and Shame rules haven't been broken as the information is factual.
The deal was done with the md/owner but he got his sales manager to sign the receipt. The manager along with all other staff are now redundant. I don't believe the manager knew but think the owner did.
All the yards are totally empty, I have checked. I am being told by former staff the car is long gone.
I have emailed and phoned the administrators who were helpful and trying to locate car and see if there was any paperwork actually logged through company. They were honest and said as a creditor I would likely to get zero.
They said I need to establish the ownership of the car, that is the part I am struggling with,
All the yards are totally empty, I have checked. I am being told by former staff the car is long gone.
I have emailed and phoned the administrators who were helpful and trying to locate car and see if there was any paperwork actually logged through company. They were honest and said as a creditor I would likely to get zero.
They said I need to establish the ownership of the car, that is the part I am struggling with,
You could notify the administrator that you rescind the contract on the basis that the company impliedly and falsely represented to you that it would and could pay the sum agreed. This is still a long shot, as the MD/owner may have believed when he made the deal that the payment would be made.
In any event, a money claim against the company is of no value, so you would have to sue for delivery up of the car on the basis of a rescinded contract, but this may do you no good if the car has been sold on to an innocent third party, as in that event your right to rescind is defeated.
In any event, a money claim against the company is of no value, so you would have to sue for delivery up of the car on the basis of a rescinded contract, but this may do you no good if the car has been sold on to an innocent third party, as in that event your right to rescind is defeated.
Breadvan72 said:
Proving that, at the time of the contract, the buyer did not intend to pay would be difficult. The member of staff who dealt with the OP may have had no idea that the company was about to enter administration. If the OP dealt with the owner and/or MD of the company, he might have more of a shout on this.
It would be most unwise to seek to grab the car, absent a reservation of title clause, or a very clear case based on fraudulent misrepresentation. Doing so might result in undesirable collar feelage.
Balance of probablities that the owner knew nothing about the insolvent state of the business? Be surprised if there wasn't a single email or other correspondecne between the owner and his accountant or bank in relation to the finances.It would be most unwise to seek to grab the car, absent a reservation of title clause, or a very clear case based on fraudulent misrepresentation. Doing so might result in undesirable collar feelage.
Still - all theoretical as the OP woul dnot doubt have a hell of a time just getting this to court - unless he has some sort of legal proetection cover in his home or motor insurance policies that provides legal fees cover for contract disputes. Some insurance policies do include this.
Proving intent or any state of mind is always hard. Showing that the MD knew the company to be in a dire financial state could go part of the way, but he may have been the eternal optimist, hoping that something would turn up, and believing that the company would be able to pay. Indeed, his plan may have been to sell the car on quickly and pay the OP from the proceeds, and the use of another bank account may suggest this, but then the first bank, which no doubt holds a charge on the company's assets, intervened and appointed Administrators.
The MD may have breached the Companies Act, but that won't help the OP, unless the Administrators choose to pursue the MD for misfeasance, which is unlikely, as most Administrators look for a quick exit.
The MD may have breached the Companies Act, but that won't help the OP, unless the Administrators choose to pursue the MD for misfeasance, which is unlikely, as most Administrators look for a quick exit.
The OP said that the cheque was drawn on the company, which is now insolvent, so a claim on the cheque is likely to be worthless. If the cheque had been drawn by the MD on his own account, there would be a slam dunker claim on the dishonoured cheque, as a cheque gives rise to a separate claim, regardless of intent and of the underlying contract.
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