Brunstroms' force humiliated in court.
Discussion
So reads a snap headline in the Daily Mail.
Story here from Welsh Daily Post.
Seems that witness statements supposedly written by officers were computer generated and their signatures electronically appended. Report says they didn't even see their "statements".
Malfeasance in public office, anyone??
If the link fails, try:
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/
Story here from Welsh Daily Post.
Seems that witness statements supposedly written by officers were computer generated and their signatures electronically appended. Report says they didn't even see their "statements".
Malfeasance in public office, anyone??
If the link fails, try:
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
oh definately out on the streets, while a computer fits up every single driver in the UK
I know where you're coming from Street, but sending signed statements that haven't been seen or signed is a bit too much for me thanks.
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
ca092003 said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
What
You want bobbies sitting in cop shops with endless reams of paperworkStreetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
Gary mon,
Are you saying this is widespread? Judge didn't like it one bit. The "statements" were signed by the computer.
Streetcop said:this depends on if the BiBs are usually found hiding behind a bush at the side of a fast and safe road with a laser gun.
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
So in this case, the more paperwork the better!
Streetcop said:
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
What
No. But if the law requires statements to be prepared in handwritten form (for example) then that is how they should be prepared until the law is changed. I am sure the irony will not be lost on you, in that it
is reasonable to expect Police forces to comply with their legal obligations.
Streetcop said:
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
What
No - we need police resources properly allocated to tasks by urgency and importance.
Fact is that the cameras don't detect anything urgent or important and the Police time is wasted. It's not the paperwork causing the waste, it's the enforcement practice.
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
What
We as MoP are expected to know, understand and obey the law in all respects.
We are frequently also told, correctly imho, that it is not up to us to decide which laws we choose to obey and which we choose to ignore.
We are also told that if you choose to disobey a particular law then on our own head be it, again something that is true if somewhat unpalatable to certain people.
Again we are told that if you don't like a particular rule or law then there is a "constitutional" process to get the law changed. In theory yes except when a Govt doesn't listen to anybody except a chosen few sycophants.
So if all the above is the true situation for MoP, why does the same not apply to the authorities?
But it does, or are we really in a "Don't do what we do, do what we tell you society" ??!!??
Streetcop said:
If you were a fly on the wall in a police station, you'd see the paperwork that was wasted on a simple shoplifting offender, let alone anything else...
I don't doubt if for a minute. But the way of dealing with it, is to push for the procedures to be changed. Not just change them and hope no one notices.
Streetcop said:
If you were a fly on the wall in a police station, you'd see the paperwork that was wasted on a simple shoplifting offender, let alone anything else...
I couldn't agree more, but that's really a different subject.
The Police are seriously bogged down in paperwork, and it must be fixed, but not by "untouched by human hands" witness statements. More by better systems handed down from the Home Office.
But my point was that lots of police time is wasted on purely technical offences, when they could be dealing with real safety violations.
>> Edited by safespeed on Thursday 11th November 13:26
Flat in Fifth said:
ca092003 said:
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
What
We as MoP are expected to know, understand and obey the law in all respects.
We are frequently also told, correctly imho, that it is not up to us to decide which laws we choose to obey and which we choose to ignore.
We are also told that if you choose to disobey a particular law then on our own head be it, again something that is true if somewhat unpalatable to certain people.
Again we are told that if you don't like a particular rule or law then there is a "constitutional" process to get the law changed. In theory yes except when a Govt doesn't listen to anybody except a chosen few sycophants.
So if all the above is the true situation for MoP, why does the same not apply to the authorities?
But it does, or are we really in a "Don't do what we do, do what we tell you society" ??!!??
It's not like that at all......
This is about cutting down on paperwork and keeping the bobbies out of the station. What I thought every MoP wanted...apparently not..
For example:
I stop you for speeding and give you a ticket. Included in the ticket is a requirement for you to produce insurance and mot certificate. You do neither of those things and don't pay the fine. I then have to write out a statement, then a witness list, then a front page etc etc for you to recieve a summons.
What's wrong with me typing your details into a computer, which then does all that for me in a fraction of the time...
Tell me if i'm going too quick...
Streetcop said:
Streetcop said:
ca092003 said:
Streetcop said:
Depends on your viewpoints....
Do you want Bobbies sitting in police stations for hours on end doing paperwork, or do you want their time to be freed up to be out on the street..
The former, but if the law requires things to be done a certain way then that is what should happen until the law is changed.
Maybe Brunstrom thinks he is above the law?
What
We as MoP are expected to know, understand and obey the law in all respects.
We are frequently also told, correctly imho, that it is not up to us to decide which laws we choose to obey and which we choose to ignore.
We are also told that if you choose to disobey a particular law then on our own head be it, again something that is true if somewhat unpalatable to certain people.
Again we are told that if you don't like a particular rule or law then there is a "constitutional" process to get the law changed. In theory yes except when a Govt doesn't listen to anybody except a chosen few sycophants.
So if all the above is the true situation for MoP, why does the same not apply to the authorities?
But it does, or are we really in a "Don't do what we do, do what we tell you society" ??!!??
It's not like that at all......
This is about cutting down on paperwork and keeping the bobbies out of the station. What I thought every MoP wanted...apparently not..
For example:
I stop you for speeding and give you a ticket. Included in the ticket is a requirement for you to produce insurance and mot certificate. You do neither of those things and don't pay the fine. I then have to write out a statement, then a witness list, then a front page etc etc for you to recieve a summons.
What's wrong with me typing your details into a computer, which then does all that for me in a fraction of the time...
Tell me if i'm going too quick...
The point is that the prosecuting officers didn't type in the details. The report says they didn't even see them, let alone sign them.
Would you be happy for a computer-generated statement, (could be on any subject) to have your name attached to it as if you had typed and signed it yourself?
ca092003 said:
What's wrong with me typing your details into a computer, which then does all that for me in a fraction of the time...
Tell me if i'm going too quick...
Nothing, assuming the legislation permits this.
My force isn't as automated as others and I still have to complete most parts myself. One plus point is that the majority of my statement are pro-forma...so that I only have to enter the defendants details, vehicle make etc and the other stuff pertinent to the location etc.
As for other ideas....legislation should be changed to assist prosecution matters....
Too often on the police radio, I hear district mobiles being dispatched to burglaries in progress and the return message of "Turning out from paperwork at the nick" is heard....
Tafia said:
The point is that the prosecuting officers didn't type in the details. The report says they didn't even see them, let alone sign them.
Would you be happy for a computer-generated statement, (could be on any subject) to have your name attached to it as if you had typed and signed it yourself?
Must say I agree with this point. But is the digital signature legally binding? Surely not? If so, then the Machine (that works on so many levels, doesn't it?) could cut down on even more paperwork and sign the NIP and the cheque on our behalf too
Streetcop said:
Streetcop said:
What's wrong with me typing your details into a computer, which then does all that for me in a fraction of the time...
Tell me if i'm going too quick...
Nothing, assuming the legislation permits this.
My force isn't as automated as others and I still have to complete most parts myself. One plus point is that the majority of my statement are pro-forma...so that I only have to enter the defendants details, vehicle make etc and the other stuff pertinent to the location etc.
As for other ideas....legislation should be changed to assist prosecution matters....
Too often on the police radio, I hear district mobiles being dispatched to burglaries in progress and the return message of "Turning out from paperwork at the nick" is heard....
StreetCop
Let's get one thing straight. I actualy support what the powers that be are trying to do in order to improve efficiency. I can well imagine the paperwork involved.
But it is no good people simply changing the procedures without being 100% sure that the necessary legislation allows it because someone, somewhere will uncover it and challenge it.
I do think, though, that the relevant BiB should add his/her signature to each document. Using scanned signatures is a no-no!
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