Suing Plumber advice please
Discussion
Hi in brief I need advice to take to court. I know about plumbing but not central heating.
Plumber prices for installation of new central heating system (unvented) at £10.5K after several site visits.
I agree. Work starts 6th Jan.
Work is supposed to take two men a week agreed at the pricing stage.
Work is still unfinished.
I paid £10.5K on 20th of Jan (yes I know..... he was recommended to me).
Plumber then starts to refit a small bathroom which I asked them to do, took two of them 6 days (tiling joinery and electrics were done by other contractors so purely pipework and fitting sanitary ware). They let me down with timescale as bathroom should have been completed by 17th Feb - they have been aware since 6th Jan. As this point I started to lose patience. They then tell me they want £350 a day in cash for this.
17th Feb plumbers turn up again and say they are carrying on with bathroom. I tell them not to and to get on with the central heating. At this point Plumber J produces an invoice for £2K for fitting the bathroom to date (unfinished) and says they will do one more day on the heating then its £350 a day thereafter. I point out that the heating was a priced job at £10.5K which has been paid and is way off one more day from completion.
Plumbers are challenged - it gets heated. Plumber J states 'you owe me £2K (for bathroom - unfinished)but I'm off, use that to finish the work' and leaves.
I have since had three other plumbers to look at the central heating work. There are several issues. No tundish (safety valve) fitted. Condensate venting onto roof. 22mm pipe not 28mm coming off cylinder so inadequate for size of property and radiators (17) there are other problems too.
I ring plumber J to tell him I am not happy. He screams at me I have £2K of his money so use that to sort it out. I point out he has £10.5K of mine. I challenge him on several aspects of his work he refuses to accept any bad workmanship. States he's not coming back (I don't want him to) puts the phone down on me.
Plumber J states he has done £12.5K of work. I think realistically including the bathroom (unfinished) he has done about £5K including materials.
I have to pay someone else to put right his mistakes and complete the job.
I want to sue for some of my £10.5K back. The plan is to get three prices for work done so far, then prices to finish.
Advice appreciated.
Thanks
Plumber prices for installation of new central heating system (unvented) at £10.5K after several site visits.
I agree. Work starts 6th Jan.
Work is supposed to take two men a week agreed at the pricing stage.
Work is still unfinished.
I paid £10.5K on 20th of Jan (yes I know..... he was recommended to me).
Plumber then starts to refit a small bathroom which I asked them to do, took two of them 6 days (tiling joinery and electrics were done by other contractors so purely pipework and fitting sanitary ware). They let me down with timescale as bathroom should have been completed by 17th Feb - they have been aware since 6th Jan. As this point I started to lose patience. They then tell me they want £350 a day in cash for this.
17th Feb plumbers turn up again and say they are carrying on with bathroom. I tell them not to and to get on with the central heating. At this point Plumber J produces an invoice for £2K for fitting the bathroom to date (unfinished) and says they will do one more day on the heating then its £350 a day thereafter. I point out that the heating was a priced job at £10.5K which has been paid and is way off one more day from completion.
Plumbers are challenged - it gets heated. Plumber J states 'you owe me £2K (for bathroom - unfinished)but I'm off, use that to finish the work' and leaves.
I have since had three other plumbers to look at the central heating work. There are several issues. No tundish (safety valve) fitted. Condensate venting onto roof. 22mm pipe not 28mm coming off cylinder so inadequate for size of property and radiators (17) there are other problems too.
I ring plumber J to tell him I am not happy. He screams at me I have £2K of his money so use that to sort it out. I point out he has £10.5K of mine. I challenge him on several aspects of his work he refuses to accept any bad workmanship. States he's not coming back (I don't want him to) puts the phone down on me.
Plumber J states he has done £12.5K of work. I think realistically including the bathroom (unfinished) he has done about £5K including materials.
I have to pay someone else to put right his mistakes and complete the job.
I want to sue for some of my £10.5K back. The plan is to get three prices for work done so far, then prices to finish.
Advice appreciated.
Thanks
Vron said:
Plumber prices for installation of new central heating system (unvented) at £10.5K after several site visits.
I agree. Work starts.
I paid £10.5K.
OK...I agree. Work starts.
I paid £10.5K.
Vron said:
Plumber then starts to refit a small bathroom which I asked them to do
Did they quote separately for that?Vron said:
(tiling joinery and electrics were done by other contractors so purely pipework and fitting sanitary ware)
Paid by you or by the plumber?TooMany2cvs said:
Vron said:
Plumber prices for installation of new central heating system (unvented) at £10.5K after several site visits.
I agree. Work starts.
I paid £10.5K.
OK...I agree. Work starts.
I paid £10.5K.
Vron said:
Plumber then starts to refit a small bathroom which I asked them to do
Did they quote separately for that? Yes Vron said:
(tiling joinery and electrics were done by other contractors so purely pipework and fitting sanitary ware)
Paid by you or by the plumber? Paid by meI am happy to instruct and pay for a lawyer and it will probably come to that. Firstly I am getting my plan in order regarding evidence against him and providing tangible figures. When I spoke to him yesterday the plan was I get a partial refund of my money agreed between us from him and we both move on but I didn't get the chance.
Vron said:
I am happy to instruct and pay for a lawyer and it will probably come to that. Firstly I am getting my plan in order regarding evidence against him and providing tangible figures. When I spoke to him yesterday the plan was I get a partial refund of my money agreed between us from him and we both move on but I didn't get the chance.
Instruct a lawyer now and obtain advice on evidence etc from that lawyer, not from a bunch of people on an internet car forum. Obtaining advice early in a dispute is often key to resolving it successfully. Breadvan72 said:
Vron said:
I am happy to instruct and pay for a lawyer and it will probably come to that. Firstly I am getting my plan in order regarding evidence against him and providing tangible figures. When I spoke to him yesterday the plan was I get a partial refund of my money agreed between us from him and we both move on but I didn't get the chance.
Instruct a lawyer now and obtain advice on evidence etc from that lawyer, not from a bunch of people on an internet car forum. Obtaining advice early in a dispute is often key to resolving it successfully. One problem here.....
You seem to have paid him the 10.5k for the heating. Sorry but no finish no pay. Stage payments for the work should have been agreed, say 4k when materials onsite and start to be installed. 3k when filled up and run then the final payment when finished and commissioned.
If you want to sue him i suggest the solicitors letter first, then contact Gas safe as i bet the boiler is not registered.
The guy sounds like a complete t
t and any decent heating engineer would not do this to a customer.
You seem to have paid him the 10.5k for the heating. Sorry but no finish no pay. Stage payments for the work should have been agreed, say 4k when materials onsite and start to be installed. 3k when filled up and run then the final payment when finished and commissioned.
If you want to sue him i suggest the solicitors letter first, then contact Gas safe as i bet the boiler is not registered.
The guy sounds like a complete t
t and any decent heating engineer would not do this to a customer.Salesy said:
One problem here.....
You seem to have paid him the 10.5k for the heating. Sorry but no finish no pay. Stage payments for the work should have been agreed, say 4k when materials onsite and start to be installed. 3k when filled up and run then the final payment when finished and commissioned.
If you want to sue him i suggest the solicitors letter first, then contact Gas safe as i bet the boiler is not registered.
The guy sounds like a complete tt and any decent heating engineer would not do this to a customer.
Yes I've been conned. Its a question damage limitation now.You seem to have paid him the 10.5k for the heating. Sorry but no finish no pay. Stage payments for the work should have been agreed, say 4k when materials onsite and start to be installed. 3k when filled up and run then the final payment when finished and commissioned.
If you want to sue him i suggest the solicitors letter first, then contact Gas safe as i bet the boiler is not registered.
The guy sounds like a complete t
t and any decent heating engineer would not do this to a customer.Gas safe seem to be as much use as a chocolate teapot. They tell me they decide if they investigate its not up to a customer to ask for an investigation. You cannot pay them to send an engineer to provide an independent report on the works either.
TooMany2cvs said:
Vron said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Vron said:
Plumber then starts to refit a small bathroom which I asked them to do
Did they quote separately for that?I wasn't happy about the price but I was under time pressure to get a bathroom functioning. I have refitted many bathrooms and I think there was no more than a generous 3 days work (not including tiling joinery etc) for the two of them. 6 working days later bathroom still unfinished and some of the work had to be redone.
My plan was not to pay the bathroom £2K he asked for until the heating was finished because I've paid in full for that so my back was against the wall there then bring out the invoices for the bathroom remedial works and take that off and dispute the bathroom charges then.
So you do owe them £2k.
The jist of it is that you agreed on the heating, then on the bathroom at £350 a day and then they finish the bathroom and ask for the money and you say no.
Then it gets heated as they havent finished the heating that was prepaid for and you refuse to give them the £2k you owe until they do.
2 seperate jobs and you are both not helping yourselves, but the work they have done so far on the heating was not good enough, so it might be the case that you have to pay them for thebathroom (unless you have issues with it) and then sue them rather than withold the payment for a job they have done.
Then learn never to pay upfront at all again.
The jist of it is that you agreed on the heating, then on the bathroom at £350 a day and then they finish the bathroom and ask for the money and you say no.
Then it gets heated as they havent finished the heating that was prepaid for and you refuse to give them the £2k you owe until they do.
2 seperate jobs and you are both not helping yourselves, but the work they have done so far on the heating was not good enough, so it might be the case that you have to pay them for thebathroom (unless you have issues with it) and then sue them rather than withold the payment for a job they have done.
Then learn never to pay upfront at all again.
Du1point8 said:
So you do owe them £2k.
The jist of it is that you agreed on the heating, then on the bathroom at £350 a day and then they finish the bathroom and ask for the money and you say no.
Then it gets heated as they havent finished the heating that was prepaid for and you refuse to give them the £2k you owe until they do.
2 seperate jobs and you are both not helping yourselves, but the work they have done so far on the heating was not good enough, so it might be the case that you have to pay them for thebathroom (unless you have issues with it) and then sue them rather than withold the payment for a job they have done.
Then learn never to pay upfront at all again.
I think you might want to read the OP again.The jist of it is that you agreed on the heating, then on the bathroom at £350 a day and then they finish the bathroom and ask for the money and you say no.
Then it gets heated as they havent finished the heating that was prepaid for and you refuse to give them the £2k you owe until they do.
2 seperate jobs and you are both not helping yourselves, but the work they have done so far on the heating was not good enough, so it might be the case that you have to pay them for thebathroom (unless you have issues with it) and then sue them rather than withold the payment for a job they have done.
Then learn never to pay upfront at all again.
johnfm said:
They didn't finish the bathroom.
He does not necessarily owe them £2k.
They didn't quote for the bathroom as a complete job rate. They quoted for working on the bathroom at a day-rate. On that basis, they have completed £2,100-worth of work, before being ordered off the site and prevented from continuing.He does not necessarily owe them £2k.
Du1point8 said:
So you do owe them £2k.
The jist of it is that you agreed on the heating, then on the bathroom at £350 a day and then they finish the bathroom and ask for the money and you say no.
Then it gets heated as they havent finished the heating that was prepaid for and you refuse to give them the £2k you owe until they do.
2 seperate jobs and you are both not helping yourselves, but the work they have done so far on the heating was not good enough, so it might be the case that you have to pay them for thebathroom (unless you have issues with it) and then sue them rather than withold the payment for a job they have done.
Then learn never to pay upfront at all again.
Nope. The jist of it is that you agreed on the heating, then on the bathroom at £350 a day and then they finish the bathroom and ask for the money and you say no.
Then it gets heated as they havent finished the heating that was prepaid for and you refuse to give them the £2k you owe until they do.
2 seperate jobs and you are both not helping yourselves, but the work they have done so far on the heating was not good enough, so it might be the case that you have to pay them for thebathroom (unless you have issues with it) and then sue them rather than withold the payment for a job they have done.
Then learn never to pay upfront at all again.
I have never said I wasn't paying the £2K so far for the unfinished bathroom - it never got that far I didn't use it as a ransom. The plumber said he was walking off the job and to use the £2K to finish the heating with that after I said I wasn't paying £350 a day on top of the fixed price of £10.5K for the heating for which he had been paid on 20th Jan.
I accept I probably will have to pay the £2K but I will take off the £400 I have receipts for getting other trades in to put the bathroom right (his mistakes) up to that point. I have spoken to my solicitor today who has said the plumber could sue me for the £2K if I don't pay so its not unexpected. I am not unreasonable I will pay for work that's done.
I have had a two page rambling letter today from the Plumber sating it was always agreed that the heating was going to be more than £10.5K, £10.5K was always the starting point. That's a lie.
His quote from December states supply and install blah blah £10.5K. Me to supply vertical radiators. In the letter today he is stating it was always traditional radiators and I changed it to 'heavy' vertical ones - he has forgotten what he has written on the quote obviously. He's also now saying because I 'changed' to wanting the pipes chasing into the wall instead of coming up out of the floorboards then that was always going to be extra. Again that is a lie.
He's stating in his letter I had extra parts fitted for the heating for £900 so I owe him that. His original quote included him supplying standard radiators for £800. He has changed that from December to say I'm to supply radiators (vertical stated on his quote) then he issued a new quote in Jan deducting the £800 for 'his' radiators but adding on the £900 for the extra parts so the quote was still £10523.
He has now said he was always going to move the condensate pipe (he drilled through the house wall externally to drip acidic water onto flat roof) into the garage and was always going to fit a tundish. This is a backpedal as he knows gas safe are coming. He told me a tundish was totally unnecessary as a child could put a sock in it and cause a flood in the airing cupboard. I asked what he had done with the one supplied with the cylinder and he screamed I had £2K to buy another one with. I pointed out I had already paid for one in the £10.K.
The electrician who wired in some motorised valves and the boiler has given me a letter stating he had to tell the plumber the expansion vessel in the boiler wasn't big enough for the house. Plumber flatly denies this says he had already worked out it was needed (what does an electrician know) but its been put on the later invoice so proves he bought it after the original quote / survey. Example of incompetence.
I have to write to him myself with the complaint so once I've got the gas safe report and the other reports on costs so far and cost to finish I will. I am going to respond to his letter today.
I am sure it will end up in court though.
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