Signatures on documents while unable to sign (physically)
Discussion
Can someone who knows for certain not guesswork please help with this scenario which happened in this order:
Person gets v.ill (asbestos related from many years ago)
Has numerous forms to fill out and sign relating to cause.
Iterates a couple of times with the forms and corrects them, correct versions arrive and are checked.
Person has stroke and is unable to sign/write/speak but is alert and otherwise cognitive (if thats the right term i.e. mentally able) just cannot physically sign
Signature as a scribble with the wrong hand may be possible.
The forms need to be signed in multiple places and sent back asap.
What do we do? PP the signature? he scribbles (but won't match any previous signature)? Something else?
If any one can advise by PM/email if possible it would be very very much appreciated.
Thanks
Person gets v.ill (asbestos related from many years ago)
Has numerous forms to fill out and sign relating to cause.
Iterates a couple of times with the forms and corrects them, correct versions arrive and are checked.
Person has stroke and is unable to sign/write/speak but is alert and otherwise cognitive (if thats the right term i.e. mentally able) just cannot physically sign
Signature as a scribble with the wrong hand may be possible.
The forms need to be signed in multiple places and sent back asap.
What do we do? PP the signature? he scribbles (but won't match any previous signature)? Something else?
If any one can advise by PM/email if possible it would be very very much appreciated.
Thanks
deckster said:
Rather than asking a load of random people on the internet, why not ask the people that have sent the forms in the first place? They will be the only people able to say "for certain not guesswork" what will be acceptable to them.
Obviously will when able to but current circumstances mean I can't and I'm trying to be helpful by getting some steer on things. I'm not asking random people it was directed at those with expertise in this area of which there are several on this forum. David A said:
Don't think applicable, mental capacity is fine its physical and hopefully short term.
You wouldn't get POA if the person wasn't mentally capable.POA doesn't mean you have to decide everything for them or even be involved in every decision being made, it essentially means that legally you have the power to make decisions where otherwise only the person for whom you have POA for could.
Durzel said:
You wouldn't get POA if the person wasn't mentally capable.
POA doesn't mean you have to decide everything for them or even be involved in every decision being made, it essentially means that legally you have the power to make decisions where otherwise only the person for whom you have POA for could.
OK thanks that makes sense, however that does feel like a second step (but necessary one given whats happened and sadly could) due to the time it could take and impact on folks at this time. POA doesn't mean you have to decide everything for them or even be involved in every decision being made, it essentially means that legally you have the power to make decisions where otherwise only the person for whom you have POA for could.
Long and short for today is they want to get these forms sent away which was the plan for Saturday but they're not signed. Suspect I'll have to get someone to go round and get them and phone up to ask if an X or a PPd signature is acceptable.
voyds9 said:
get him to mark the paper best he can then witness the 'mark'
So person signs X, you write "this is the mark of Mr John Smith as witnessed by Mr David Jones."
That is how I was taught it for medical forms.
OK that sounds sensible ! should have thought of that guess a nurse/doc could witness too rather than family member.So person signs X, you write "this is the mark of Mr John Smith as witnessed by Mr David Jones."
That is how I was taught it for medical forms.
Durzel said:
David A said:
Don't think applicable, mental capacity is fine its physical and hopefully short term.
You wouldn't get POA if the person wasn't mentally capable.POA doesn't mean you have to decide everything for them or even be involved in every decision being made, it essentially means that legally you have the power to make decisions where otherwise only the person for whom you have POA for could.
From personal experience. In terms of the signature, it's just proof of consent. For example, my great-grandparent's immigration papers were signed with an 'X' through necessity.
From a more modern perspective my Dad had a terminal brain tumour a few years ago. I was forced to watch a Mensa member, career school teacher with immaculate handwriting deteriorate to spidery scrawl to hardly holding a pen to paper.
However, as it happened, we sorted a POA a few years previously, when he was 60, and I was trusted that when the time came I could decide when to step in. In practical terms, in in this situation, if you had that, you wouldn't have to ask this question - you could just sign yourself.
The issue is that although of course everyone hopes that any disablement is short term, you need to understand the statistics of stroke in terms of odds of subsequent strokes. As others have said, when mental capacity is reduced, the POA route becomes much more difficult.
Although it's not the nicest thing to contemplate for both parties, I would really, really recommend doing a POA ASAP. For my family it prevented what was a hugely difficult time being made much more difficult.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
this seems to indicate that a thumb print maybe enough even without a witness
this seems to indicate that a thumb print maybe enough even without a witness
JustinP1 said:
I totally agree.
From personal experience. In terms of the signature, it's just proof of consent. For example, my great-grandparent's immigration papers were signed with an 'X' through necessity.
From a more modern perspective my Dad had a terminal brain tumour a few years ago. I was forced to watch a Mensa member, career school teacher with immaculate handwriting deteriorate to spidery scrawl to hardly holding a pen to paper.
However, as it happened, we sorted a POA a few years previously, when he was 60, and I was trusted that when the time came I could decide when to step in. In practical terms, in in this situation, if you had that, you wouldn't have to ask this question - you could just sign yourself.
The issue is that although of course everyone hopes that any disablement is short term, you need to understand the statistics of stroke in terms of odds of subsequent strokes. As others have said, when mental capacity is reduced, the POA route becomes much more difficult.
Although it's not the nicest thing to contemplate for both parties, I would really, really recommend doing a POA ASAP. For my family it prevented what was a hugely difficult time being made much more difficult.
Yes that will be done, thank you.From personal experience. In terms of the signature, it's just proof of consent. For example, my great-grandparent's immigration papers were signed with an 'X' through necessity.
From a more modern perspective my Dad had a terminal brain tumour a few years ago. I was forced to watch a Mensa member, career school teacher with immaculate handwriting deteriorate to spidery scrawl to hardly holding a pen to paper.
However, as it happened, we sorted a POA a few years previously, when he was 60, and I was trusted that when the time came I could decide when to step in. In practical terms, in in this situation, if you had that, you wouldn't have to ask this question - you could just sign yourself.
The issue is that although of course everyone hopes that any disablement is short term, you need to understand the statistics of stroke in terms of odds of subsequent strokes. As others have said, when mental capacity is reduced, the POA route becomes much more difficult.
Although it's not the nicest thing to contemplate for both parties, I would really, really recommend doing a POA ASAP. For my family it prevented what was a hugely difficult time being made much more difficult.
Now this was a few years ago , and in Scotland, so might not be applicable. My father had had a stroke and although he could write, his signature was not similar to his pre stroke one. He also had Glycoma and needed treatment. Consultant got him to sign and then I added witness to his signature.
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