Murder, cctv, frustration and timescales
Discussion
I've had 2 officers around today. Going door to door asking about a local murder and looking for evidence on CCTV. A week and a half after it happened. I only keep 7 days as if the car is still there, then I don't have footage of it being stolen.
The thing is. And I've suggested this to the Chief C previously when he asked for ideas. If I'd registered with the local plod as having CCTV and given them my E-Mail. They could e-mail everybody registered on streets of interest, within a few days, and we could upload any CCTV for the time period requested. So rather than walking the streets looking for cameras 10+ days later, they could be looking at footage in about 48 hours. Some people even have web access they could register details of. Then Plod could access/download it for themselves.
There has got to be a simple way of doing this.
Something serious happens. CID go to the computer, put in the post code nearest the event. It spits out all the CCTV e-mail addresses in a 2 mile radius. Send. Watch the online storage fill up with video from the area. Make coffee. Watch video.
Seems like you could almost do it with google maps, dropbox, and a little thought.
Actually Excel and a PCSO would probably do.
Anyway I know they have come to my street so long after because I'm some distance away, and presumably they work out from the body. But it does seem like they are missing a trick.
The thing is. And I've suggested this to the Chief C previously when he asked for ideas. If I'd registered with the local plod as having CCTV and given them my E-Mail. They could e-mail everybody registered on streets of interest, within a few days, and we could upload any CCTV for the time period requested. So rather than walking the streets looking for cameras 10+ days later, they could be looking at footage in about 48 hours. Some people even have web access they could register details of. Then Plod could access/download it for themselves.
There has got to be a simple way of doing this.
Something serious happens. CID go to the computer, put in the post code nearest the event. It spits out all the CCTV e-mail addresses in a 2 mile radius. Send. Watch the online storage fill up with video from the area. Make coffee. Watch video.
Seems like you could almost do it with google maps, dropbox, and a little thought.
Actually Excel and a PCSO would probably do.
Anyway I know they have come to my street so long after because I'm some distance away, and presumably they work out from the body. But it does seem like they are missing a trick.
Good idea, but suspect they'll be data protection hoops to jump through. Also doubtful if people would bother to keep their database details (change of email etc) updated without prompting (assuming all CCTV holders use email). Then if an investigation, emails sent out, no reply received (due to person not checking their emails / changing email address), vital evidence is overlooked. I suspect it'd be more prudent to ask when needed, door to door, although this too has it's flaws.
Slidingpillar said:
Data protection is probably a weak excuse given to avoid doing anything - surely the act does not apply to the police in the course of their business.
People incorrectly think they can band about 'data protection guv' when in reality they dont know anything about it.For example a pupil at a school phoned police to say he was mugged on route to school. We attend school to speak with him, receptionist demands I sign a data protection form before he is got from his class to speak with me about the incident.
"....thats not required"
"Yes it is, you have to sign it under data protection law"
"Is the head here?
"You still have to sign it"
"You do realise he phoned us, asking for us to attend right"
".......you have to sign a data protection form, its the law"
"Which law?"
".......I'll get the head"
"Good idea"
Greendubber said:
Slidingpillar said:
Data protection is probably a weak excuse given to avoid doing anything - surely the act does not apply to the police in the course of their business.
People incorrectly think they can band about 'data protection guv' when in reality they dont know anything about it.For example a pupil at a school phoned police to say he was mugged on route to school. We attend school to speak with him, receptionist demands I sign a data protection form before he is got from his class to speak with me about the incident.
"....thats not required"
"Yes it is, you have to sign it under data protection law"
"Is the head here?
"You still have to sign it"
"You do realise he phoned us, asking for us to attend right"
".......you have to sign a data protection form, its the law"
"Which law?"
".......I'll get the head"
"Good idea"
The Met police are horrific at throwing about "It's data protection"
If only there were some way people could be educated on it.
TC99 said:
They like to get out of the office and go walk about. Your solution would preclude that.
I'm not suggesting they don't go out and touch the local population. It's just that they are obviously scratching about looking for anything at the moment. So any opportunity to capture potential evidence and secure it before it's deleted has to be useful.If it takes an extra 5 minutes before they head out the office to do door to door on day 2 of the investigation, I can't see it getting in the way.
Once the dust settles someone probably should go through and clear out all the duff addresses with bounced e-mails etc.
I probably didn't have anything useful. But we'll never know, because it took too long to ask me. I find that frustrating.
Munter, that's a good idea. It reminds me of that thread here about the CCTV of a chap walking past two women on the pavement in Essex and there being some banter and him going back to her, putting his arm around her shoulder and then her hitting the pavement after he'd punched her in the face.
The evidence was there, but by the time the chap had been caught up with it was over six months.
In your example the evidence could be there but because nobody knew about it it could have been routinely deleted.
I can think of one recent case where the police got to the crime scene and then didn't secure all of the evidence. The loss of evidence didn't thwart that conviction though.
Munter, I think your idea also has some parallel with the crime maps that police forces use. So they have used the web to produce dots on maps where crimes have occurred but they're not making the most of existing infrastructure and evidence that could be there if they asked in time.
Did I see something online where there was an App. that allowed people to track where their 'beat team' was on their foot patrols? Such police officer tracking apps. may show police 'presence' and give 'reassurance' but your idea would help secure evidence.
When the police pay informants, would it may be worthwhile offering a reward for footage that assists a conviction or for all footage within the timeframe of the alleged or suspected crime.
I was interviewed at home by an officer after an appointment was made by an officer was making door to door inquiries. It was a good example of police work that still has me smiling.
Why leave evidence to wither on the vine? What's the benefit in not securing potential evidence while it's still there?
Perhaps your suggestion isn't CSI enough? It's just too basic and obvious. Your bullet isn't silver and they'd have to clean the common sense off of it first.
Your suggestion would allow the community to work with the police, build bridges and may help restore their reputation. Your suggestion is tick box central.
The evidence was there, but by the time the chap had been caught up with it was over six months.
In your example the evidence could be there but because nobody knew about it it could have been routinely deleted.
I can think of one recent case where the police got to the crime scene and then didn't secure all of the evidence. The loss of evidence didn't thwart that conviction though.
Munter, I think your idea also has some parallel with the crime maps that police forces use. So they have used the web to produce dots on maps where crimes have occurred but they're not making the most of existing infrastructure and evidence that could be there if they asked in time.
Did I see something online where there was an App. that allowed people to track where their 'beat team' was on their foot patrols? Such police officer tracking apps. may show police 'presence' and give 'reassurance' but your idea would help secure evidence.
When the police pay informants, would it may be worthwhile offering a reward for footage that assists a conviction or for all footage within the timeframe of the alleged or suspected crime.
TC99 said:
They like to get out of the office and go walk about. Your solution would preclude that.
It wouldn't stop them doing both though. They could even work with their local Royal Mail depot to drop flyers with all of the marketing bumpf and NHS Care.Date opt out forms. A poster in local corner shops may also work.I was interviewed at home by an officer after an appointment was made by an officer was making door to door inquiries. It was a good example of police work that still has me smiling.
ZOLLAR said:
Whilst I agree with you the police are no better.
The Met police are horrific at throwing about "It's data protection"
If only there were some way people could be educated on it.
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe on about Operation Othona documents getting shreded or was it not getting back to Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon about the death threats the Met had informed her of? I may have been doing Bill Hicks quote marks in the air and winking and saying 'Catastrophic Computer Failure' earlier in the day. The Met police are horrific at throwing about "It's data protection"
If only there were some way people could be educated on it.
Munter said:
I probably didn't have anything useful. But we'll never know, because it took too long to ask me. I find that frustrating.
I think it's a good suggestion. There may have been evidence there, and it may be lost forever like the Op. Othona stuff in that catastrophic computer failure. Why leave evidence to wither on the vine? What's the benefit in not securing potential evidence while it's still there?
Perhaps your suggestion isn't CSI enough? It's just too basic and obvious. Your bullet isn't silver and they'd have to clean the common sense off of it first.
Your suggestion would allow the community to work with the police, build bridges and may help restore their reputation. Your suggestion is tick box central.
Greendubber said:
It could be a lead they're following up that only came to light a bit later into the enquiry. One of the priority actions on a 'big job' is the CCTV trawl, normally within the hour to be fair.
And that's grand. But as you say. Leads come up later on, I'm guessing quite often within a mile or 2 of the scene.This could be automated with a bit of effort, and if not required, throw it away after 6 weeks or so, and send out an automated thanks e-mail.
I reckon a degree student could create a VM that could be stood up up in an approved cloud and do the e-mailing and data collection.
Stand it up, copy in the e-mail addresses. Et-Voila, hit the streets, and catch some crims, yeah woo party etc etc....(err...I've been working too hard ok... ;-) )
Munter said:
Greendubber said:
It could be a lead they're following up that only came to light a bit later into the enquiry. One of the priority actions on a 'big job' is the CCTV trawl, normally within the hour to be fair.
And that's grand. But as you say. Leads come up later on, I'm guessing quite often within a mile or 2 of the scene.This could be automated with a bit of effort, and if not required, throw it away after 6 weeks or so, and send out an automated thanks e-mail.
I reckon a degree student could create a VM that could be stood up up in an approved cloud and do the e-mailing and data collection.
Stand it up, copy in the e-mail addresses. Et-Voila, hit the streets, and catch some crims, yeah woo party etc etc....(err...I've been working too hard ok... ;-) )
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