Questions on police in-car video camera
Discussion
Hello all,
I got stopped earlier today on a 3-lane dual c'way with a 70mph limit by 2 officers in a marked car who alleged, to my surprise, that I'd been doing 104mph, and advised me of their intention to prosecute. The circumstances were as follows:
- I spotted their car from a fair way off, (traffic was light and visibility excellent) and made sure I was doing exactly (an indicated) 70mph before I reached it. It was facing forwards, parked up on the ordinary hard shoulder - not one of those raised platform thingies.
- They then pulled me over and invited me to sit in their car, where one officer pointed out the video camera, which appeared to be a fixed camera, mounted behind the rear view mirror.
- There was a screen on their dashboard which said '104mph' in the top left-hand corner, but the image on the screen just showed my car stationary in front of them. They didn't show me the video, and I didn't think to ask.
- One of the officers said my speed had been recorded by the camera over 124 metres, and that I'd covered that distance in 4 point something seconds.
So my questions to the PH collective (
and others) are:
1) Can a fixed camera between the rear view mirror and the windscreen see behind the car? If so, what's its accurate range?
2) I can't remember the exact timing that was quoted, but it was definitely 4.? sec, and even assuming the worst (i.e. 124m in 4.0 sec), that's only about 69.7mph. Can they override the video evidence and use their own visual estimate of a vehicle's speed?
TIA,
Ian.
PS I don't want this to sound like another police-bashing thread - their attitude towards me was fine, and I just think a genuine mistake may have been made.
I got stopped earlier today on a 3-lane dual c'way with a 70mph limit by 2 officers in a marked car who alleged, to my surprise, that I'd been doing 104mph, and advised me of their intention to prosecute. The circumstances were as follows:
- I spotted their car from a fair way off, (traffic was light and visibility excellent) and made sure I was doing exactly (an indicated) 70mph before I reached it. It was facing forwards, parked up on the ordinary hard shoulder - not one of those raised platform thingies.
- They then pulled me over and invited me to sit in their car, where one officer pointed out the video camera, which appeared to be a fixed camera, mounted behind the rear view mirror.
- There was a screen on their dashboard which said '104mph' in the top left-hand corner, but the image on the screen just showed my car stationary in front of them. They didn't show me the video, and I didn't think to ask.
- One of the officers said my speed had been recorded by the camera over 124 metres, and that I'd covered that distance in 4 point something seconds.
So my questions to the PH collective (
and others) are: 1) Can a fixed camera between the rear view mirror and the windscreen see behind the car? If so, what's its accurate range?
2) I can't remember the exact timing that was quoted, but it was definitely 4.? sec, and even assuming the worst (i.e. 124m in 4.0 sec), that's only about 69.7mph. Can they override the video evidence and use their own visual estimate of a vehicle's speed?
TIA,
Ian.
PS I don't want this to sound like another police-bashing thread - their attitude towards me was fine, and I just think a genuine mistake may have been made.
DrSeuss said:
Hello all,
I got stopped earlier today on a 3-lane dual c'way with a 70mph limit by 2 officers in a marked car who alleged, to my surprise, that I'd been doing 104mph, and advised me of their intention to prosecute. The circumstances were as follows:
- I spotted their car from a fair way off, (traffic was light and visibility excellent) and made sure I was doing exactly (an indicated) 70mph before I reached it. It was facing forwards, parked up on the ordinary hard shoulder - not one of those raised platform thingies.
- They then pulled me over and invited me to sit in their car, where one officer pointed out the video camera, which appeared to be a fixed camera, mounted behind the rear view mirror.
- There was a screen on their dashboard which said '104mph' in the top left-hand corner, but the image on the screen just showed my car stationary in front of them. They didn't show me the video, and I didn't think to ask.
- One of the officers said my speed had been recorded by the camera over 124 metres, and that I'd covered that distance in 4 point something seconds.
So my questions to the PH collective (
1) Can a fixed camera between the rear view mirror and the windscreen see behind the car? If so, what's its accurate range?
2) I can't remember the exact timing that was quoted, but it was definitely 4.? sec, and even assuming the worst (i.e. 124m in 4.0 sec), that's only about 69.7mph. Can they override the video evidence and use their own visual estimate of a vehicle's speed?
TIA,
Ian.
PS I don't want this to sound like another police-bashing thread - their attitude towards me was fine, and I just think a genuine mistake may have been made.
Hi Ian,
I'm going to assume that because they have your speed shown on the video screen inside the car then they simply used the VASCAR equipment built into the vehicle.
What is totally unacceptable is the fact that you were not shown the video; I have won a couple of cases on that alone, the police erased the tapes before they went to court.
The speed reading that you saw on the screen could have been anyone's; they should have shown you the video which would have shown the datum points they used to input the VASCAR.
What they have to prove is that they could accurately observe your vehicle from the rear pass a point 124 Metres behind them and get that input in when you are travelling at over 100 MPH. At that speed a 14 ft car is covering 11 car lengths a second, think about that.
The second datum point for the VASCAR would presumably be their vehicle, which you claim you passed at exactly 70 MPH.
It doesn't add up, plenty of room for doubt and error there.
Always remember Ian, that VASCAR is manually operated and therefore prone to human error, and don't let ANYONE tell you differently.
I would leave it until you hear from the CPS.
Because it's over 100MPH, you won't get an FP, it'll go straight to court.
If you want any more advice, drop me an e-mail and I'll see what I can do.
Might also be worth going to the pepipoo site and making use of the experience and expertise over there. There have been several cases like the one you're describing.
IOLAIRE said:
What is totally unacceptable is the fact that you were not shown the video;
It's not compulsary for the police to show the driver the video, although it's often done to concrete in the mind of the driver the decision to accept it and not go to court.
However, many BiB do not show the driver the tape because the machine wont record what's going on in the car whilst the video is being viewed. So, from a 'cover your arse' point of view, I keep the video running so that the driver can't later alledge that something improper occured ie: I was threatening/abusive or whatever, during the time the recorder was switched off.
Just a fact of life nowadays....
Street
Thanks chaps. I'm just reading the Pepipoo site now, and have already spotted something of potential significance: the ACPO guidelines state that speed checks must normally be carried out over a minimum of 1/8 mile (200m), and this distance should only be reduced where the speed limit is 40mph or less, so 124m @ 70mph would seem to be unacceptable.
So it looks like a case of waiting for the written NIP and then writing to the CPS and requesting a copy of the video and the exact time/distance figures. In the meantime, I'll get busy making some notes from Pepipoo...
Thanks again,
Ian.
So it looks like a case of waiting for the written NIP and then writing to the CPS and requesting a copy of the video and the exact time/distance figures. In the meantime, I'll get busy making some notes from Pepipoo...
Thanks again,
Ian.
turbobloke said:
Just a fact of life nowadays.... Street
Unlike seeing a post from your good self Street
So-so mate...thanks for asking...
Would you believe...I've got another fatal RTC investigation running again since yesterday....
Another young life wasted...
Street
Streetcop said:
Streetcop said:
Just a fact of life nowadays.... Street
Unlike seeing a post from your good self Street
So-so mate...thanks for asking...
Would you believe...I've got another fatal RTC investigation running again since yesterday....
Another young life wasted...
Street
Do not let it get to you Liebchen....sometimes ...accidents will occur regardless.....
Anecdotes from around the family ...
1. The vet (quite happy to eat her patients) but cried for weeks after her first "euthenasia".... and still feels rotten every time she has to do this.
2. The Mad Doc .... can always tell if he ist losting a patient .... he gets to know them well ... und then they go and die on him.....
3. The BiBs in this family all confess to :hurl at some incidents. All of them allowed those little incidents within this family colour their judgement for a while afterwards.... pulling people for least little swerve und so weiter....Of course, their work causes some stress to them ... but they try to keep things in perspective ..... and accept that accidents will happen ... no matter how much they try to help prevent....
124m in 4.00 sec is 69.36 mile/h. VASCAR has a minimum distance / time built in to allow for error due to operators eye hand co-ordination. This is normally accepted in experimental practice as +/- 0.3 sec.
Over only 4 sec this could be 3.4- 4.6 sec which gives a speed range of 81 to 60.2 mile/h.
I fought a ban over a displayed 100.02 mile/h using manufacturers data The MEGGIT Vascar has specified accuracy of +/- 2 mile/h when used in accordance with the makers instructions and the minimum distance will be specified within these. Try to find out the model and the makers details - the min distance will be specified as will accuracy. Dont expect your solicitor or the mags to understand such complexity though.
Over only 4 sec this could be 3.4- 4.6 sec which gives a speed range of 81 to 60.2 mile/h.
I fought a ban over a displayed 100.02 mile/h using manufacturers data The MEGGIT Vascar has specified accuracy of +/- 2 mile/h when used in accordance with the makers instructions and the minimum distance will be specified within these. Try to find out the model and the makers details - the min distance will be specified as will accuracy. Dont expect your solicitor or the mags to understand such complexity though.
Dr Seuss,
Couple of points :
104mph = 46.49216 m/sec
124 metres/46.49216 = 2.667 secs. Something's amiss here......
It does indeed sound like VASCAR to me. You will need to wait until the summons comes through before you know which way to go, but it sounds like a royal
up from plod. 124m is WAY too short a distance to calculate a speed, as per the ACPO guidelines.
It sounds like you could have a strong case.
Couple of points :
104mph = 46.49216 m/sec
124 metres/46.49216 = 2.667 secs. Something's amiss here......
It does indeed sound like VASCAR to me. You will need to wait until the summons comes through before you know which way to go, but it sounds like a royal
up from plod. 124m is WAY too short a distance to calculate a speed, as per the ACPO guidelines. It sounds like you could have a strong case.
DeMolay said:
Dr Seuss,
Couple of points :
104mph = 46.49216 m/sec
124 metres/46.49216 = 2.667 secs. Something's amiss here......
It does indeed sound like VASCAR to me. You will need to wait until the summons comes through before you know which way to go, but it sounds like a royal
It sounds like you could have a strong case.
Yes the system works well when used correctly but over short distances and times the inherent inaccuracies due to the operator and other factors are no longer an ignorably (made up word) small element of the calculation and real uncertainty exists. Worth seeing through surely?
>> Edited by turbobloke on Monday 29th November 14:01
Thanks for all the advice, and keep it coming if anything else springs to mind. I'm cautiously optimistic about this, although all the S172 stuff has shown that the powers that be aren't afraid to bend the rules in order to secure speeding convictions...
Now that really is taking the proverbial. Did you win?
>> Edited by DrSeuss on Monday 29th November 14:19
Richard C said:
I fought a ban over a displayed 100.02 mile/h
Now that really is taking the proverbial. Did you win? >> Edited by DrSeuss on Monday 29th November 14:19
It seems like too short a distance to me!
The VASCAR/POLICE PILOT will be linked into the video on the car. The video will be running showing a stationary Police Vehicle with other cars flashing past the front of it. The officer operating the device will have earlier pre fed a distance into the device before you will have even seen the patrol car. You speed would have been checked even up to a mile away if they have good line of site between the 2 chosen points. The 2 chosen points may well be recorded on the tape minutes or even hours before you were stopped. They will have run through teh site they chose, identifying the 1st point and driving under it (if a bridge) when the distance switch would have been activated to record the pre fed distance until the second chosen point was reached. Having reached the second point, the distance switch will have been de-activated and the distance recorded between the two points will have been stored in the device.
If the tape was running, then this will show the operating calculations on the display on the screen whn they run the two points through into the device. They will then drive 1/2 mile further up the road than the 2 points they have chosen and park up. They will then watch approaching traffic and form opinion about those vehicles which are travelling in excess of the limit.
Having clocked you before you clocked them, they will have activated the time switch on the device as you passed the 1st point they have chosen in the pre-fed distance. When you pass the 2nd point, they will de-activate the time switch and your average speed over that distance will be automatically recorded in the VASCAR head display and on the videoe screen display, even though the patrol car was stationary and the video view does not show the target car until it is actually stopped.
Short pre-fed distances have a greater margin of error than longer ones for obvious reasons!
Training and authorisation tests are rigorous and the user must show that over a series of checks that no check is more than 1mph error overall. They must have an average of less than .5mph error over that series of checks. If this standard is not achieved, then the course has been failed and the officer will not be authorised to use it.
I hope that helps you!
The VASCAR/POLICE PILOT will be linked into the video on the car. The video will be running showing a stationary Police Vehicle with other cars flashing past the front of it. The officer operating the device will have earlier pre fed a distance into the device before you will have even seen the patrol car. You speed would have been checked even up to a mile away if they have good line of site between the 2 chosen points. The 2 chosen points may well be recorded on the tape minutes or even hours before you were stopped. They will have run through teh site they chose, identifying the 1st point and driving under it (if a bridge) when the distance switch would have been activated to record the pre fed distance until the second chosen point was reached. Having reached the second point, the distance switch will have been de-activated and the distance recorded between the two points will have been stored in the device.
If the tape was running, then this will show the operating calculations on the display on the screen whn they run the two points through into the device. They will then drive 1/2 mile further up the road than the 2 points they have chosen and park up. They will then watch approaching traffic and form opinion about those vehicles which are travelling in excess of the limit.
Having clocked you before you clocked them, they will have activated the time switch on the device as you passed the 1st point they have chosen in the pre-fed distance. When you pass the 2nd point, they will de-activate the time switch and your average speed over that distance will be automatically recorded in the VASCAR head display and on the videoe screen display, even though the patrol car was stationary and the video view does not show the target car until it is actually stopped.
Short pre-fed distances have a greater margin of error than longer ones for obvious reasons!
Training and authorisation tests are rigorous and the user must show that over a series of checks that no check is more than 1mph error overall. They must have an average of less than .5mph error over that series of checks. If this standard is not achieved, then the course has been failed and the officer will not be authorised to use it.
I hope that helps you!
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