pattern parts and the law.
Discussion
I don't know if this topic has already been discussed,but...
what is the position from a legal point of view of substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
I won't name the part or marque of vehicle at this point but suffice to say it is a critical component that upon failure could render the driver almost totally helpless in controlling the vehicle to a safe stop.
I know parts will and do fail but with this particular component it is becoming more apparent that it 'could' be down to not being manufactured to the original design.
what is the position from a legal point of view of substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
I won't name the part or marque of vehicle at this point but suffice to say it is a critical component that upon failure could render the driver almost totally helpless in controlling the vehicle to a safe stop.
I know parts will and do fail but with this particular component it is becoming more apparent that it 'could' be down to not being manufactured to the original design.
IANAL
I guess it would depend on how the part got to market.Are we talking about a part that is being sold and claimed to be OEM but is a knock off from another source or a non-OEM branded part that has been reverse engineered? A knock off could be classed as mis-representation is sold as OEM, Sale Of Goods Act? and reverse enginnered part could be a breace of a paternt or simalar.
Do we have evidence that the part is not-fit for purpose or just that it differs from the design specification? There are plenty of aftermarket products for sale that are at least as good, and sometimes better, than the OEM parts.
I guess it would depend on how the part got to market.Are we talking about a part that is being sold and claimed to be OEM but is a knock off from another source or a non-OEM branded part that has been reverse engineered? A knock off could be classed as mis-representation is sold as OEM, Sale Of Goods Act? and reverse enginnered part could be a breace of a paternt or simalar.
Do we have evidence that the part is not-fit for purpose or just that it differs from the design specification? There are plenty of aftermarket products for sale that are at least as good, and sometimes better, than the OEM parts.
garagewidow said:
I don't know if this topic has already been discussed,but...
what is the position from a legal point of view of substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
I won't name the part or marque of vehicle at this point but suffice to say it is a critical component that upon failure could render the driver almost totally helpless in controlling the vehicle to a safe stop.
I know parts will and do fail but with this particular component it is becoming more apparent that it 'could' be down to not being manufactured to the original design.
what are you actually asking 'from a legal point', are you talking about, producing? supplying?, fitting? using? and are you talking about being road legal? liability for failure? disclosure to consumers? disclosure to insurance companies? what is the position from a legal point of view of substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
I won't name the part or marque of vehicle at this point but suffice to say it is a critical component that upon failure could render the driver almost totally helpless in controlling the vehicle to a safe stop.
I know parts will and do fail but with this particular component it is becoming more apparent that it 'could' be down to not being manufactured to the original design.
what do you actually mean by substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
a pattern part is one which is made to the same original design, but not necessarily with the same level of quality control, so are you talking about aftermarket parts which are not the same design or pattern parts with potentially inferior build quality ?
there is no point being cryptic about what it is, there are specific laws for specific parts of a car, so you need to be specific
If you were taking about brake pads for example, they are covered by ECE R90, it's not one which is particularly enforced in this country, i do not believe you are strictly required to have an approved E stamped brake pads by law in this country, but i believe there is a fair amount of regulation about supplying and fitting brake pads. It may not make it illegal to supply / fit non approved pads, particularly if they are specifically chosen by the customer but you cannot simply stick them on when someone comes in asking for new brake pads.
garagewidow said:
I don't know if this topic has already been discussed,but...
what is the position from a legal point of view of substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
I won't name the part or marque of vehicle at this point but suffice to say it is a critical component that upon failure could render the driver almost totally helpless in controlling the vehicle to a safe stop.
I know parts will and do fail but with this particular component it is becoming more apparent that it 'could' be down to not being manufactured to the original design.
If the part is that important, why not just use a genuine part? Or if you are looking to save cash, a refurbished original part?what is the position from a legal point of view of substandard pattern parts that are not manufactured to the specs of the original design?
I won't name the part or marque of vehicle at this point but suffice to say it is a critical component that upon failure could render the driver almost totally helpless in controlling the vehicle to a safe stop.
I know parts will and do fail but with this particular component it is becoming more apparent that it 'could' be down to not being manufactured to the original design.
Slidingpillar said:
As the OP hasn't given specifics, is the issue really fake parts? Nasty bits in a box that purports to be from a reputable maker but wasn't made by them.
eBay seems to be a good source of these.
good point and good question eBay seems to be a good source of these.
often the part in the <marque> or <marque's tame brand> box is no different to a part in a Lucas /Magneti Marelli / QH / Mann filter etc etc etc part becasue they are made on the same lines with the same stuff just some has GM /Ford /VAG / M-B etc stamped on it and the rest has the OEM parts maker's name / logo stamped on it - i'vve also seen none structural OEM plastic parts with a grinder mark where the Marque logo is on the marque branded part ...
I had a summer job years ago swapping Lucas starters and alternators into OEM boxes with OEM labels.
Reverse engineering generally gets round patents by employing one team of engineers to pull it apart and write the design spec, then another team sees the spec and designs the part to those specs. If it isn't covered by a patent its copied as closely as is required.
Reverse engineering generally gets round patents by employing one team of engineers to pull it apart and write the design spec, then another team sees the spec and designs the part to those specs. If it isn't covered by a patent its copied as closely as is required.
Not sure that secrecy is required. I believe the OP is referring to front vertical links for Triumphs (Spitfire,GT6, Vitesse etc).
My approach with these is to obtain good quality 2nd hand ex-California items which have not suffered from corrosion in the way old UK ones often have. The pattern option isn't something I considered even before the recent alleged spate of failures. The pattern ones just look s
t alongside a. Good original to my eyes.
My approach with these is to obtain good quality 2nd hand ex-California items which have not suffered from corrosion in the way old UK ones often have. The pattern option isn't something I considered even before the recent alleged spate of failures. The pattern ones just look s
t alongside a. Good original to my eyes. ^^ correct.
there have been a few failures with copies of the original and it may seem that they are not machined to the exacting standards and methods of the originals and hence may be failing premature.
they fail without warning and there is no detection of anything that could be impending during an MOT except total dismantle and inspection of the suspension.
there have been a few failures with copies of the original and it may seem that they are not machined to the exacting standards and methods of the originals and hence may be failing premature.
they fail without warning and there is no detection of anything that could be impending during an MOT except total dismantle and inspection of the suspension.
Does not sound like a part which is covered by any specific regulation
vosa are still able to recall after market parts in some cases details can be found here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of...
you mention "failing premature", that would suggest even the OEM parts are prone to failure in the same manor just not as soon, which would suggest a design fault is the ultimate cause of these being unsafe rather than the manufacturing defects
vosa are still able to recall after market parts in some cases details can be found here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of...
you mention "failing premature", that would suggest even the OEM parts are prone to failure in the same manor just not as soon, which would suggest a design fault is the ultimate cause of these being unsafe rather than the manufacturing defects
Engineer1 said:
Reverse engineering generally gets round patents by employing one team of engineers to pull it apart and write the design spec, then another team sees the spec and designs the part to those specs. If it isn't covered by a patent its copied as closely as is required.
I think you may be muddling copyright and patent law. Patents protect the way something works, so designing to meet specs might not enable you to avoid the patent as the patent will protect the functionality embodied in the product (if it's been written decently). Key here is to get a patent attorney to tell you what you can't do (i.e. what's covered by the claims of the patent), and then develop a design that works in a way that is outside of the scope of the patent claims.Getting one team to rip apart a product and then getting another to design to the same specs is an attempt to avoid copyright / design right issues. Copyright / Design Right only protect against copying - so you'd claim that as the second team didn't see the original product they can't have copied it, and hence there can't have been any infringement of those rights.
ging84 said:
Does not sound like a part which is covered by any specific regulation
vosa are still able to recall after market parts in some cases details can be found here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of...
you mention "failing premature", that would suggest even the OEM parts are prone to failure in the same manor just not as soon, which would suggest a design fault is the ultimate cause of these being unsafe rather than the manufacturing defects
Not so much a design fault, but on ageing parts which have been poorly maintained the weakness is that rust can form at a point which leads to a stress fracture and eventual failure. Regular oiling with hypoid oil of the trunnion at the base of the upright is essential to prevent this.vosa are still able to recall after market parts in some cases details can be found here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of...
you mention "failing premature", that would suggest even the OEM parts are prone to failure in the same manor just not as soon, which would suggest a design fault is the ultimate cause of these being unsafe rather than the manufacturing defects
It is a fair point that the failures reported on the pattern parts are far too soon for this to be a factor. The issue with original parts tends to be with parts over 30 years old which have been poorly maintained during their lifetime. The issue with these new parts is that they appear capable of failing after a few months.
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