Poor work from a garage during service
Discussion
I had my car serviced in February and at the same time asked the garage to install performance trumpets for my induction system.
Yesterday I had to open up the area they worked on so I could perform a different job and found that they have not used the adhesive supplied to them with the kit. They have used a different and unsuitable adhesive which has melted and the trumpets have come loose. Not the end of the world even though a garage shouldn't have made that mistake however the bigger concern is that this adhesive has now leaked down my inlet manifold and into who knows where in the engine.
Full details and photos are here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I have e mailed the garage concerned and will be calling them tomorrow but I'd like to know legally what my rights are.
The car is running fine, pulling well but over the past 4 weeks now smells like burning plastic on hard acceleration (possibly burning the melted adhesive and carbon fibre?) and smokes on the overrun. Smoking on overrun is classic valve damage.
My car engine was rebuilt professionally last year at a different garage at a cost of £4.5k so should be in fine fettle and not smoking.
It is obvious that the adhesive has gone down the inlet manifold and possibly into the valve train.
Can I insist they remove the inlet manifold (and cylinder heads) to check where the adhesive has ended up and to clear it out OR do I have to wait and see if the car develops a fault and then try to get the matter sorted?
As an aside, the carbon fibre trumpets at they fitted have been cut and nibbled when they fitted them as they didn't fit them in the correct order. Can I insist on them fitting new trumpets rather than refitting the trumpets that they damaged?
Thanks is advance.
Yesterday I had to open up the area they worked on so I could perform a different job and found that they have not used the adhesive supplied to them with the kit. They have used a different and unsuitable adhesive which has melted and the trumpets have come loose. Not the end of the world even though a garage shouldn't have made that mistake however the bigger concern is that this adhesive has now leaked down my inlet manifold and into who knows where in the engine.
Full details and photos are here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I have e mailed the garage concerned and will be calling them tomorrow but I'd like to know legally what my rights are.
The car is running fine, pulling well but over the past 4 weeks now smells like burning plastic on hard acceleration (possibly burning the melted adhesive and carbon fibre?) and smokes on the overrun. Smoking on overrun is classic valve damage.
My car engine was rebuilt professionally last year at a different garage at a cost of £4.5k so should be in fine fettle and not smoking.
It is obvious that the adhesive has gone down the inlet manifold and possibly into the valve train.
Can I insist they remove the inlet manifold (and cylinder heads) to check where the adhesive has ended up and to clear it out OR do I have to wait and see if the car develops a fault and then try to get the matter sorted?
As an aside, the carbon fibre trumpets at they fitted have been cut and nibbled when they fitted them as they didn't fit them in the correct order. Can I insist on them fitting new trumpets rather than refitting the trumpets that they damaged?
Thanks is advance.
Edited by A900ss on Monday 19th May 12:45
Edited by A900ss on Monday 19th May 12:47
The initial job was probably about £70 labour (1 to 1.5 hours at a guess I don't know exact amount as part of £500 service) so getting that cash back is small change.
Replacement parts are going to be about £50 but to strip down to the heads and reassemble assuming no work other than removing the adhesive I think will cost £700 ish. More if valve or cylinder damage. So I'm not really interested in getting £70 back as a refund and then having to pay £700 to get the car cleaned elsewhere unless they are footing the bill.
I want my car to be in the condition as when I dropped it off for the service but to have the trumpets in.
Replacement parts are going to be about £50 but to strip down to the heads and reassemble assuming no work other than removing the adhesive I think will cost £700 ish. More if valve or cylinder damage. So I'm not really interested in getting £70 back as a refund and then having to pay £700 to get the car cleaned elsewhere unless they are footing the bill.
I want my car to be in the condition as when I dropped it off for the service but to have the trumpets in.
Edited by A900ss on Sunday 18th May 19:24
I suspect you would need there to be negligence to have a case against them to claim for any consequential damage
these look to me like they are aftermarket, which mean there certainly won't be any instructions on how to install them in the service manual
unless there were instructions from you or the manufacturer of the trumpets which they ignored, then it is hard to argue they were negligent. Unless they were a specialist in this sorts of thing (and were presumably charging you lots of money)
Manufacturers will spend thousands on the design and testing of their intake systems, you've ask someone to redesign for £70, now you have to live with the consequence
these look to me like they are aftermarket, which mean there certainly won't be any instructions on how to install them in the service manual
unless there were instructions from you or the manufacturer of the trumpets which they ignored, then it is hard to argue they were negligent. Unless they were a specialist in this sorts of thing (and were presumably charging you lots of money)
Manufacturers will spend thousands on the design and testing of their intake systems, you've ask someone to redesign for £70, now you have to live with the consequence
ging84 said:
unless there were instructions from you or the manufacturer of the trumpets which they ignored, then it is hard to argue they were negligent. Unless they were a specialist in this sorts of thing (and were presumably charging you lots of money)
Full instructions were included in the kit and this is a common upgrade on TVR's. Likewise this is a self claimed (according to their own website) TVR specialist.
The adhesive they should have used was also included in the kit. They chose to use something else and it's this 'something else' that has caused the issue.
Edited by A900ss on Sunday 18th May 19:26
Vaud said:
IANAL, but suggest checking your car insurance for legal cover, should it be needed.
But start with a friendly approach.
Along the lines of, "I'm sure there has been an error somewhere, how can we resolve this?"
That's exactly have I have started and would like to continue. I'd just like to know what my rights are if push comes to shove. I do have legal insurance. But start with a friendly approach.
Along the lines of, "I'm sure there has been an error somewhere, how can we resolve this?"
ging84 said:
Manufacturers will spend thousands on the design and testing of their intake systems, you've ask someone to redesign for £70, now you have to live with the consequence
You've seen the original offcuts of scrap metal tube that TVR originally used for trumpets then?The carbon trumpet's are a huge improvement.
ging84 said:
Manufacturers will spend thousands on the design and testing of their intake systems, you've ask someone to redesign for £70, now you have to live with the consequence
£70 is an estimate of just the LABOUR to fit these trumpets. I don't think there is any question that they have fitted them incorrectly and used their own incorrect adhesive despite full instructions of how to complete the work and me supplying the correct adhesive to them.
I'm more concerned about what they legally are required to do to correct this?
A) they do the base minimum which is refit the trumpets
B) they dig deeper into the engine to clear out all the excess adhesive that is currently in my inlet manifold and possibly cylinder heads/cylinders
C) they pay for someone else to do the work as if they can't do this basic task right in the first place, using wrong materials and not reading instructions, why should I have any confidence in them completing more detailed work with the cylinder heads?
Like I said, I'm going softly softly with them but I would like to know what I should be doing if they don't play ball.
All I want is my car to be in the same state that I gave it to them, therefore without adhesive inside the engine.
PAULJ5555 said:
Would you be part responsible as you knew they used the wrong glue at the time and did not insist they take it off and redo it at the time, instead you left it knowing full well it was wrong (as per instructions) and took a chance that all would be ok.
I don't think I'm responsible at all but maybe I haven't been clear. I supplied the kit (trumpets, correct adhesive and gasket) to be fitted in addition to an annual service. Cost of service £500 and I guess of that £70 ish was labour for fitting these parts.
When I picked the car up I wasnt told that they decided to use their own adhesive and no adhesive returned to me.
These trumpets are not in view, they are under a bolted cover as part of the fuel injection system.
It was only by chance when I did a different job at the weekend that I have discovered what they have done.
Surely I can't be expected to lift a bolted cover when I've instructed somebody to do some work and then check that it is to a required standard? I paid a professional the going rate to do a professional job.
Happy to be corrected if I am out of line.
What I still would like to know is what my 'legal' position is? I'm going softly softly first as ultimately, I just want the car sorted.
Thanks in advance.
The question is, were they negligent, if they were then you have a potential claim for the damage caused by their negligence. I don't know if you would be expected to allow them a chance to do it themselves or if you'd be in your rights to take it elsewhere.
How have you established they used their own adhesive and not the one you supplied?
Is it not just as likely that the adhesive supplied was used but turned out to be inadequate, if that was the case then you have no claim against the garage in the slightest, and it's quite likely the after market kit comes with a disclaimer so you'd have a job claiming against the manufacturers
How have you established they used their own adhesive and not the one you supplied?
Is it not just as likely that the adhesive supplied was used but turned out to be inadequate, if that was the case then you have no claim against the garage in the slightest, and it's quite likely the after market kit comes with a disclaimer so you'd have a job claiming against the manufacturers
ging84 said:
Is it not just as likely that the adhesive supplied was used but turned out to be inadequate, if that was the case then you have no claim against the garage in the slightest
That's very true. I know that the adhesive supplied by the manufacturer is clear and the adhesive used on my car is black. No clear adhesive is available to be seen.However surely if the garage chose to use an alternative adhesive it should have been fit for purpose, I am paying for their expertise am I not?
I also know that the clear adhesive has been used on many cars (well into the 100's for this installation) and the supplier has not had any negative comments nor have I heard of this being an issue from other PHer's.
I have mailed the garage concerned and am waiting a response from them.
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