DVLA - Potential Fine
Discussion
I had a letter from dvla enforcement today saying I was being fined for failing to inform them of the sale of my vehicle and transfer of keeper. When I sold the vehicle in March, I filled in the V5 with the new owner, gave him the new keeper supplement and then posted the V5 the following day, 1st class (not recorded).
The reverse of the letter gives me space to explain why I shouldn't be fined. If I write that in there, will they drop the potential fine? Anyone else ever had this? I have zero proof that I actually posted the V5 but I obviously did post it.
The reverse of the letter gives me space to explain why I shouldn't be fined. If I write that in there, will they drop the potential fine? Anyone else ever had this? I have zero proof that I actually posted the V5 but I obviously did post it.
You do not need to pay any fine. Your obligation as the seller was to do exactly as you have done (post the V5 to the DVLA). You do not need proof of posting, you stating that you did the posting is quite sufficient (if you know time and location of posting that would be helpful additional context but is NOT required).
Write back to the DVLA stating that you informed them of the change of owner via First Class post and will not be paying any "fine".
For the avoidance of doubt the DVLA cannot issue fines, they have actually sent you an invoice dressed up to look like a fine.
Good luck!
Write back to the DVLA stating that you informed them of the change of owner via First Class post and will not be paying any "fine".
For the avoidance of doubt the DVLA cannot issue fines, they have actually sent you an invoice dressed up to look like a fine.
Good luck!
I had something similar a couple of months ago. My car was written off (rear ended while stationary).
Transferred to the insurance company (actually the company dealing with the car).
They sent a letter chasing me for unpaid tax + fine.
I filled out the form detailing what had happened and that i had posted the appropriate documents. Held myself back from ranting about the fact they were attempting fining me for them losing paperwork.
Posted this one recorded delivery.
Received a letter a few weeks later stating something along the lines of "We will take no further action, we consider this matter closed".
Transferred to the insurance company (actually the company dealing with the car).
They sent a letter chasing me for unpaid tax + fine.
I filled out the form detailing what had happened and that i had posted the appropriate documents. Held myself back from ranting about the fact they were attempting fining me for them losing paperwork.
Posted this one recorded delivery.
Received a letter a few weeks later stating something along the lines of "We will take no further action, we consider this matter closed".
Ok, as I see it, lets look at what is required on change of ownership:
The law is at Road Vehicles(Reg & Licensing)Regs 2002 which states at Reg 22:
Change of keeper: registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper not a vehicle trader
22. (1) This regulation applies where—
(a)there is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;
(b)a vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and
(c)the new keeper is not a vehicle trader.
(2) The registered keeper of the vehicle—
(a)if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and
(b)shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following—
(i)the name and address of the new keeper;
(ii)the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;
(iii)a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and
(iv)a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.
Now looking at Section 7 Intrepretation Act 1978
Section 7 References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” OR ANY OTHER expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
IMHO in this case 'to deliver' must include post - a normal way of communication in such cases therefore in postage of the remainer part of V5 one has complied with the law.
Nowhere is the above legislation is authority for DVLA to impose a 'spot fine' for the offence of failing to notify change of ownership other than through a Magistrates Court. I have taken this matter up with them before and they agree but state in doing so they are giving the option to pay before taking such action. Whether they would take such action where the owner has fully complied and is prepared to plead Not Guilty to such a charge is a debateable matter.
dvd
The law is at Road Vehicles(Reg & Licensing)Regs 2002 which states at Reg 22:
Change of keeper: registration document issued in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997 and the new keeper not a vehicle trader
22. (1) This regulation applies where—
(a)there is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;
(b)a vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and
(c)the new keeper is not a vehicle trader.
(2) The registered keeper of the vehicle—
(a)if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and
(b)shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following—
(i)the name and address of the new keeper;
(ii)the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;
(iii)a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and
(iv)a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.
Now looking at Section 7 Intrepretation Act 1978
Section 7 References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” OR ANY OTHER expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
IMHO in this case 'to deliver' must include post - a normal way of communication in such cases therefore in postage of the remainer part of V5 one has complied with the law.
Nowhere is the above legislation is authority for DVLA to impose a 'spot fine' for the offence of failing to notify change of ownership other than through a Magistrates Court. I have taken this matter up with them before and they agree but state in doing so they are giving the option to pay before taking such action. Whether they would take such action where the owner has fully complied and is prepared to plead Not Guilty to such a charge is a debateable matter.
dvd
Had a second letter from the DVLA today saying thanks for my recent explanation but I've still got to pay £35 by 20th July or it rises to £55 if I pay between the 21st and 27th. It doesn't say what will happen after that.
The reason for the fine is stated as:
"...although you have indicated that you are no longer the keeper of the vehicle, the department has not received notification of this. When the department is advised that the keeper of the vehicle has changed we send an acknowledgement letter within 4 weeks of notification. It is a matter for you to pursue this letter"
(I did not get such notification. I'm guessing because they didn't receive the V5 after I'd posted it)
What should I do? Pay up or try to dispute it? Anyone else had this before?
The reason for the fine is stated as:
"...although you have indicated that you are no longer the keeper of the vehicle, the department has not received notification of this. When the department is advised that the keeper of the vehicle has changed we send an acknowledgement letter within 4 weeks of notification. It is a matter for you to pursue this letter"
(I did not get such notification. I'm guessing because they didn't receive the V5 after I'd posted it)
What should I do? Pay up or try to dispute it? Anyone else had this before?
Sadly what generally seems to happen with these is the DVLA will ignore all and any attempt to dispute - then in seemingly about 95% of cases (where people don't cave in) they take you off to one side on the day of the Court Hearing and say they're dropping the case.
There are a couple of cases where ignorant local Magistrates have found for the DVLA, but on the whole they seem to either back down or lose.
The onus is on them to provide some evidence to refute the claim that they were notified - of course they can't possibly do that but some folk fall for the "you should have chased us up when we didn't send you confirmation" which is arse.
IANL, but I really don't like the DVLA
There are a couple of cases where ignorant local Magistrates have found for the DVLA, but on the whole they seem to either back down or lose.
The onus is on them to provide some evidence to refute the claim that they were notified - of course they can't possibly do that but some folk fall for the "you should have chased us up when we didn't send you confirmation" which is arse.
IANL, but I really don't like the DVLA
V8forweekends said:
Sadly what generally seems to happen with these is the DVLA will ignore all and any attempt to dispute - then in seemingly about 95% of cases (where people don't cave in) they take you off to one side on the day of the Court Hearing and say they're dropping the case.
There are a couple of cases where ignorant local Magistrates have found for the DVLA, but on the whole they seem to either back down or lose.
The onus is on them to provide some evidence to refute the claim that they were notified - of course they can't possibly do that but some folk fall for the "you should have chased us up when we didn't send you confirmation" which is arse.
IANL, but I really don't like the DVLA
Thanks for that. Do you know what what the implications would be of having my day in court and then losing? Don't really want to go through all the hassle if I end up paying hundreds in the end. (Although I guess they rely on people having that attitude) There are a couple of cases where ignorant local Magistrates have found for the DVLA, but on the whole they seem to either back down or lose.
The onus is on them to provide some evidence to refute the claim that they were notified - of course they can't possibly do that but some folk fall for the "you should have chased us up when we didn't send you confirmation" which is arse.
IANL, but I really don't like the DVLA
I'm no freedom fighter but this has really boiled my piss.
£250 ish seems to about the going rate for the fine. (ETA - most the cases where a fine is recorded were where people didn't know they were being pursued and therefore didn't turn up - very few folk seem to actually get fined if they bother to plead not guilt and/or turn up and mount some form of defence)
Quite a few folk have won, loads more had their cases dropped - but for balance here's one who lost, and lost at appeal -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Bear in mind that DVLAs own admissions on FOI requests show that they "lose" a lot of documents internally.
Most (sensible) Magistrates seem to accept that The Interpretation Act only requires one to post the V5(c) or write to DVLA, no more.
Quite a few folk have won, loads more had their cases dropped - but for balance here's one who lost, and lost at appeal -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Bear in mind that DVLAs own admissions on FOI requests show that they "lose" a lot of documents internally.
Most (sensible) Magistrates seem to accept that The Interpretation Act only requires one to post the V5(c) or write to DVLA, no more.
Edited by V8forweekends on Monday 7th July 22:17
V8forweekends said:
£250 ish seems to about the going rate for the fine.
Quite a few folk have won, loads more had their cases dropped - but for balance here's one who lost, and lost at appeal -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Bear in mind that DVLAs own admissions on FOI requests show that they "lose" a lot of documents internally.
Most (sensible) Magistrates seem to accept that The Interpretation Act only requires one to post the V5(c) or write to DVLA, no more.
Great link. Thanks. I think I'm going to dispute it. Quite a few folk have won, loads more had their cases dropped - but for balance here's one who lost, and lost at appeal -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
Bear in mind that DVLAs own admissions on FOI requests show that they "lose" a lot of documents internally.
Most (sensible) Magistrates seem to accept that The Interpretation Act only requires one to post the V5(c) or write to DVLA, no more.
V8forweekends said:
Good luck - the balance of numbers is definitely in your favour. I don't think it's been mentioned here, but it can't hurt to enlist the help of your MP
Great advice. Never thought of that!! I'll ponder over the next couple of days and go from there. Thanks for everyone's help. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff