"Police under pressure"
Discussion
I hate police shows, but this one was rather good: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b048scxv/poli...
It's good for those who believe the following:
1) The Government got rid of targets,
2) That the primary police focus on anything other than crime and on criminals (speeding motorists etc zzz).
Full respect to South Yorkshire for allowing such a candid programme to be made.
Well worth a watch.
It's good for those who believe the following:
1) The Government got rid of targets,
2) That the primary police focus on anything other than crime and on criminals (speeding motorists etc zzz).
Full respect to South Yorkshire for allowing such a candid programme to be made.
Well worth a watch.
I only saw a little of it and wondered about the wisdom of increasing the targets as a way motivating the officers that could not even reach the current ones. That they are also supposed to be cutting costs cannot make the job easy.
At least I did not hear such management gems as 'key performance indicators', 'metrics' and 'deliverables', though 'ducks in a row' did slip out.
At least I did not hear such management gems as 'key performance indicators', 'metrics' and 'deliverables', though 'ducks in a row' did slip out.
Indeed. The problem was that was the number that HMIC / the Government wanted.
The Most Similar Groups they were discussing are meant to be groups of the forces in the country most similar to theirs in terms of size, population, deprivation and a few other factors.
The performance of each force within the MSG are taken to create the mean, then deviations etc. The problem South Yorkshire had / has was they were the farthest from the mean and the figures they were quoting we what was needed to get closer to average. They aren't random but they are hardly bespoke to an area.
What complicates things to a greater degree is all cuts aren't equal. The 20% of central cuts from the government have a greater impact on different forces depending on the central vs precept (council tax) ratio i.e. those with higher central funding because they cover an economically poorer area suffer more from the cuts. One could argue this is a rather Tory thing to happen.
I found it refreshing to see the realities of policing placed over turd-fests like road wars that film Gucci departments and edit the occasional good bits together.
The Most Similar Groups they were discussing are meant to be groups of the forces in the country most similar to theirs in terms of size, population, deprivation and a few other factors.
The performance of each force within the MSG are taken to create the mean, then deviations etc. The problem South Yorkshire had / has was they were the farthest from the mean and the figures they were quoting we what was needed to get closer to average. They aren't random but they are hardly bespoke to an area.
What complicates things to a greater degree is all cuts aren't equal. The 20% of central cuts from the government have a greater impact on different forces depending on the central vs precept (council tax) ratio i.e. those with higher central funding because they cover an economically poorer area suffer more from the cuts. One could argue this is a rather Tory thing to happen.
I found it refreshing to see the realities of policing placed over turd-fests like road wars that film Gucci departments and edit the occasional good bits together.
La Liga said:
I found it refreshing to see the realities of policing placed over turd-fests like road wars that film Gucci departments and edit the occasional good bits together.
If I wasn't in the Police, I would genuinely believe that Rufy and Biggers or whatever the hell they were called were worthy of an award. They seem to strike gold with every stop they make. Although in fairness the reality wouldn't be so "interesting". Ironic really, given that it's "reality" TV.La Liga said:
I found it refreshing to see the realities of policing placed over turd-fests like road wars that film Gucci departments and edit the occasional good bits together.
Definitely the most accurate reflection of the current state of Policing I've seen. While the situation in SYP seems particularly dire it's not much better elsewhere. It is difficult to describe to people who aren't in the job - there are cuts being made now where there isn't anything left to cut. To me it seemed like a typical BBC propaganda type of production, in that their main message was basically "stop the spending cuts, vote Labour".
I wondered if they didn't have so many meetings to discuss targets and actually got on with business so to speak that they could in fact achive those elusive few percentage points that they were chasing.
On another note I also wondered why such accurately random percentage figures were plucked from the air? 31% for example.
I would rather see the officers being allowed to get on with their jobs without the silly levels of pressure being displayed in that program.
And would also like to stop see rooms filled with 'managers' seemingly managing themselves over which arbitrary percentage figures should be reached.
I wondered if they didn't have so many meetings to discuss targets and actually got on with business so to speak that they could in fact achive those elusive few percentage points that they were chasing.
On another note I also wondered why such accurately random percentage figures were plucked from the air? 31% for example.
I would rather see the officers being allowed to get on with their jobs without the silly levels of pressure being displayed in that program.
And would also like to stop see rooms filled with 'managers' seemingly managing themselves over which arbitrary percentage figures should be reached.
AA999 said:
To me it seemed like a typical BBC propaganda type of production, in that their main message was basically "stop the spending cuts, vote Labour".
I wondered if they didn't have so many meetings to discuss targets and actually got on with business so to speak that they could in fact achive those elusive few percentage points that they were chasing.
On another note I also wondered why such accurately random percentage figures were plucked from the air? 31% for example.
I would rather see the officers being allowed to get on with their jobs without the silly levels of pressure being displayed in that program.
And would also like to stop see rooms filled with 'managers' seemingly managing themselves over which arbitrary percentage figures should be reached.
SIGH!!I wondered if they didn't have so many meetings to discuss targets and actually got on with business so to speak that they could in fact achive those elusive few percentage points that they were chasing.
On another note I also wondered why such accurately random percentage figures were plucked from the air? 31% for example.
I would rather see the officers being allowed to get on with their jobs without the silly levels of pressure being displayed in that program.
And would also like to stop see rooms filled with 'managers' seemingly managing themselves over which arbitrary percentage figures should be reached.
I'm a serving Officer. It is a VERY accurate reflection of Policing today. Did you see last weeks episode. We do 'get on with the job', but simply don't have enough people to do it. The example last showed there were more suspects than Officers available to deal (and that was just one job). This Government have decimated the Police. I am (was) a lifelong Tory voter. It's got nothing to do with the colour of your tie. It's just fact.
Thread also running in TV forum
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Elroy Blue on Tuesday 1st July 09:48
Edited by Elroy Blue on Tuesday 1st July 09:49
The media doesn't make much money from the mundane. Programming needs to have an angle, something to stoke debate. Pretty much everything I've seen first hand, from the filming of Top Gear to Jeremy Vine to the Telegraph and others, real life is heavily edited in order to achieve the angle.
AA999 said:
I wondered if they didn't have so many meetings to discuss targets and actually got on with business so to speak that they could in fact achive those elusive few percentage points that they were chasing.
It was filmed over several months. You'd expect your senior management teams to be having strategic meetings on a regular basis in any business around the main risks and performance. AA999 said:
On another note I also wondered why such accurately random percentage figures were plucked from the air? 31% for example.
Because that % in the time period they had left would have reached the figures the HMIC and Government had set. AA999 said:
I would rather see the officers being allowed to get on with their jobs without the silly levels of pressure being displayed in that program.
And would also like to stop see rooms filled with 'managers' seemingly managing themselves over which arbitrary percentage figures should be reached.
That's one of the main points. And would also like to stop see rooms filled with 'managers' seemingly managing themselves over which arbitrary percentage figures should be reached.
In 2010, Theresa May said Police across England and Wales must not chase performance targets any longer. Yet, here we are 4 years later and the Government's own Inspectors have a performance structure which is comparing quantitative data with other forces and using it as the be all and end all.
Elroy Blue said:
SIGH!!
I'm a serving Officer. It is a VERY accurate reflection of Policing today. Did you see last weeks episode. We do 'get on with the job', but simply don't have enough people to do it. The example last showed there were more suspects than Officers available to deal (and that was just one job). This Government have decimated the Police. I am (was) a lifelong Tory voter. It's got nothing to do with the colour of your tie. It's just fact.
Thread also running in TV forum
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Don't get me wrong, my post was not meant to reflect a negative viewpoint on the officers, my bro is also a serving officer, under similar pressures. (Apologies if it came across that way!)I'm a serving Officer. It is a VERY accurate reflection of Policing today. Did you see last weeks episode. We do 'get on with the job', but simply don't have enough people to do it. The example last showed there were more suspects than Officers available to deal (and that was just one job). This Government have decimated the Police. I am (was) a lifelong Tory voter. It's got nothing to do with the colour of your tie. It's just fact.
Thread also running in TV forum
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Elroy Blue on Tuesday 1st July 09:48
Edited by Elroy Blue on Tuesday 1st July 09:49
What gripes me is that the BBC 'angle' is to constantly mention the spending cuts, yes accepted this forms a large part of the pressures, but also at the same time I find that setting meaningless targets with management sitting in countless meetings is counter-productive - just an opinion from watching those programs.
What if the numbers of management were halved? With those salaries being spent on numerous officers on the beat and additional numbers to meet those targets?
Their biggest problem is they are trying to police South Yorkshire, a godawful places full of scallies and ne'er-do-wells.
They might as well pull out and surround it with an electrified fence and let them police themselves, 'Escape from New York' style....
And yes, I was born there and later lived there for 4 years - scarred for life!
They might as well pull out and surround it with an electrified fence and let them police themselves, 'Escape from New York' style....
And yes, I was born there and later lived there for 4 years - scarred for life!
AA999 said:
I find that setting meaningless targets with management sitting in countless meetings is counter-productive - just an opinion from watching those programs.
What if the numbers of management were halved? With those salaries being spent on numerous officers on the beat and additional numbers to meet those targets?
The targets being set aren't "meaningless" - they were being set at a level calculated to bring the force within the acceptable range set out by HMIC, within a strict time limit.What if the numbers of management were halved? With those salaries being spent on numerous officers on the beat and additional numbers to meet those targets?
If you half the management, at some point you're going to increase the work load on the remaining high-ranking officers, who are still subject to being called out overnight as silver- or gold-commanders for all sorts of incidents. Etc. (It's been well-documented within the service over the years that decreasing the numbers of mid-level officers/managers has significantly increased the stress levels suffered by those remaining, particularly Chief Inspectors/Inspectors and latterly, Sergeants.)
The Mail takes a 'BBC is biased' approach by claiming they neglected to show that recorded crime had fallen: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2675859/BB...
Of course they have no issue doing a 'double-think' about recorded crime: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540003/It...
The whole show was based around the Government / HMIC taking over SYP had they not improved their recorded crime performance. The programme concluded by showing an Inspector praising the improved recorded-crime performance.
Of course they have no issue doing a 'double-think' about recorded crime: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540003/It...
The whole show was based around the Government / HMIC taking over SYP had they not improved their recorded crime performance. The programme concluded by showing an Inspector praising the improved recorded-crime performance.
Is managing any organisation of the Police's size ever going to be easy?
Over-resource and the performance versus the cost becomes unacceptable in the eyes of those who pay for the service. Under-resource and the service cannot be provided to the satisfaction of those who pay and those who provide it become over-worked and leave. Somewhere is the middle ground.
Sadly, the ever changing goalposts nature of the force, with political influence and therefore targets changing regularly, means the happy middle ground is going to be very hard to find.
On reflection over the past 4 years, I believe the Police were previously underperforming for their resources and the balance was too far in that direction. The evidence for that is in the reduction of resources with no obvious and corresponding loss of service. In the same way as bankers, who will take every opportunity open and beyond to push the rules, I don't lay the blame for inefficiency at the Police's door- rather I think Labour's obsession with 'investment' allowed them to do it, in the same way Labour's regulators allowed the bankers to misbehave (whilst it suited them to do so).
Now the 'investment' has been cut back, I don't see evidence (yet) that the performance of the Police has reduced down to an unacceptable level. After all, turkeys don't vote for Christmas, and officers historically earning very good money with better-than-market conditions (doing what is often a difficult, dangerous and tedious job, admittedly), don't like being told they're going to be paid less and have to work harder. That's human nature and understandable. What the police aren't though, is alone. This recession saw far fewer redundancies than would be typical in normal circumstances- the reason being companies in the private sector froze pay (real term reductions) and cut hours. People in the private sector have had to work harder for less money. Which is why I don't feel too sorry for those in the Police who've been asked to do the same.
Over-resource and the performance versus the cost becomes unacceptable in the eyes of those who pay for the service. Under-resource and the service cannot be provided to the satisfaction of those who pay and those who provide it become over-worked and leave. Somewhere is the middle ground.
Sadly, the ever changing goalposts nature of the force, with political influence and therefore targets changing regularly, means the happy middle ground is going to be very hard to find.
On reflection over the past 4 years, I believe the Police were previously underperforming for their resources and the balance was too far in that direction. The evidence for that is in the reduction of resources with no obvious and corresponding loss of service. In the same way as bankers, who will take every opportunity open and beyond to push the rules, I don't lay the blame for inefficiency at the Police's door- rather I think Labour's obsession with 'investment' allowed them to do it, in the same way Labour's regulators allowed the bankers to misbehave (whilst it suited them to do so).
Now the 'investment' has been cut back, I don't see evidence (yet) that the performance of the Police has reduced down to an unacceptable level. After all, turkeys don't vote for Christmas, and officers historically earning very good money with better-than-market conditions (doing what is often a difficult, dangerous and tedious job, admittedly), don't like being told they're going to be paid less and have to work harder. That's human nature and understandable. What the police aren't though, is alone. This recession saw far fewer redundancies than would be typical in normal circumstances- the reason being companies in the private sector froze pay (real term reductions) and cut hours. People in the private sector have had to work harder for less money. Which is why I don't feel too sorry for those in the Police who've been asked to do the same.
Edited by tenpenceshort on Tuesday 1st July 10:33
I'm not sure I agree officers are on "very good money"? The wage is acceptable, but I wouldn't describe it as very good. In fact I had this conversation with a colleague the other day. I'm on my phone so can't google, but I wonder what the average salary for various parts are.
Certainly 19k I wouldn't describe as sufficient satay for a lavish lifestyle.
Certainly 19k I wouldn't describe as sufficient satay for a lavish lifestyle.
Mk3Spitfire said:
I'm not sure I agree officers are on "very good money"? The wage is acceptable, but I wouldn't describe it as very good. In fact I had this conversation with a colleague the other day. I'm on my phone so can't google, but I wonder what the average salary for various parts are.
Certainly 19k I wouldn't describe as sufficient satay for a lavish lifestyle.
Considering the educational requirements to become a Police officer, the money is very good, compared to private sector pay in similar circumstances. This is particularly the case as you progress, where your Police qualifications do little to boost your qualifications relevant to the private sector.Certainly 19k I wouldn't describe as sufficient satay for a lavish lifestyle.
A sergeant might be on high £30ks with a handful of GCSEs and time served on his CV, and little else. The private sector in general (excepting those who seek ex-Police) will see little of additional value in those over and above anyone else similarly qualified (ie. not £30k per year people). Anyone visiting the 'Jobs & Employment' forum here will have seen numerous threads by serving officers looking for similarly paying work outside of the Police, and being disappointed with the response.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not critising the Police officers for the work they do or the pay they get- but there does sometimes need to be a reality check when people in the Police complain about the erosion of their side of the bargain- despite the cuts it still isn't bad compared to others.
On any police based TV show you will see a situation where one or two drunk or aggressive people need 6-8 police to deal with them and the trouble they have caused. Normally resulting in nobody pressing charges.
While at the same time some poor bugger has been burgled but only gets one junior plod to go round and take a few notes because everyone else is busy.
This is a pretty good metaphor for the police in general over the whole country.
While at the same time some poor bugger has been burgled but only gets one junior plod to go round and take a few notes because everyone else is busy.
This is a pretty good metaphor for the police in general over the whole country.
I understand where you're coming from, but it does seen that they are flogging a dead horse.
The result is, like you say, a lot of good, experienced officers looking for jobs outside of the police. They've dropped the pay right down, ransacked the pension (which a lot of officers were told was safe when they joined, and hence why they signed up). All this is going to do is attract the less enthusiastic and lower caliber of people in our police force. I can't see that as a good thing.
The result is, like you say, a lot of good, experienced officers looking for jobs outside of the police. They've dropped the pay right down, ransacked the pension (which a lot of officers were told was safe when they joined, and hence why they signed up). All this is going to do is attract the less enthusiastic and lower caliber of people in our police force. I can't see that as a good thing.
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