Could we clarify undertaking?

[Bennet]

Disregarding any caveats about slow moving traffic or other non conventional circumstances:

I see plenty of people claiming that passing on the left is not an offence unless you've deliberately changed lanes in order to facilitate the pass. Then I also read stories where people claim to have been fined for undertaking that came about simply as a result of maintaining speed in their lane.

If I'm doing 70 in lane one and catch up a line of 5 cars all doing 60 in lane 2, do I need to move to lane 3 to pass or not?

Would some actual police kindly let us know whether there is a consensus on this? Or is it just that individual officers' own interpretations differ it's luck of the draw who happens to see you.

I'm unfamiliar with who is and isn't a member of the police on these boards so perhaps you would be kind enough to mention this in any response.

People talking with complete conviction based on internet hearsay and waving a copy of the highway code above their head need not reply.

(To be honest, I see enough confusion and ambiguity about this that I'm surprised it's not already a sticky topic.)

[Johnnytheboy]

Bennet said:

People talking with complete conviction based on internet hearsay and waving a copy of the highway code above their head need not reply.

SP&L is not going to give you much satisfaction.

[vonhosen]

Bennet said:

Disregarding any caveats about slow moving traffic or other non conventional circumstances:

I see plenty of people claiming that passing on the left is not an offence unless you've deliberately changed lanes in order to facilitate the pass. Then I also read stories where people claim to have been fined for undertaking that came about simply as a result of maintaining speed in their lane.

If I'm doing 70 in lane one and catch up a line of 5 cars all doing 60 in lane 2, do I need to move to lane 3 to pass or not?

Would some actual police kindly let us know whether there is a consensus on this? Or is it just that individual officers' own interpretations differ it's luck of the draw who happens to see you.

I'm unfamiliar with who is and isn't a member of the police on these boards so perhaps you would be kind enough to mention this in any response.

People talking with complete conviction based on internet hearsay and waving a copy of the highway code above their head need not reply.

(To be honest, I see enough confusion and ambiguity about this that I'm surprised it's not already a sticky topic.)

It's how the officer interprets Sec 3 RTA (with reference to the highway code) & then if they decide to report you, the CPS & court also need to come to the same conclusion as them having considered the testimony given.

[jaf01uk]

vonhosen said:

It's how the officer interprets Sec 3 RTA (with reference to the highway code) & then if they decide to report you, the CPS & court also need to come to the same conclusion as them having considered the testimony given.

There you are, clear as day for you...

I am not allowed an opinion according to your conditions but there is no specific offence of "undertaking"

[tenpenceshort]

jaf01uk said:

vonhosen said:

It's how the officer interprets Sec 3 RTA (with reference to the highway code) & then if they decide to report you, the CPS & court also need to come to the same conclusion as them having considered the testimony given.

There you are, clear as day for you...

I am not allowed an opinion according to your conditions but there is no specific offence of "undertaking"

No, there is no specific offence of 'undertaking'. The relevant offences would be Careless/Inconsiderate or Dangerous, depending on the circumstances. As Von says, the Officer on the scene would interpret the behaviour against the circumstances on the scene and the legislation. If prosecuted and you challenge that interpretation, the courts will have regard to all the circumstances (including you own evidence, that of any witnesses and the Police Officer involved), the Highway Code that the CPS solicitor will be waving about and any relevant case law.

The question for the magistrates isn't "was he undertaking?", the question is "did the driving fall below the standard expected of a careful and competent driver?". If you have clearly breached a provision of the Highway Code, even though not necessarily an offence in its own right, the Magistrates are entitled to take that into account in making their decision.

As often said on these forums, it will depend entirely on all the circumstances, so there is no hard or fast rule on undertaking that can be written down and given to you as a catch-all. Sorry if that disappoints.

[Osinjak]

I find myself doing this more and more often to the point where I've normalised it. I also see it more and more often from others as well which suggests I'm not alone. It's so frustrating really, I just wish these mongs who trundle along in the middle lane would just wake up and have a bit of awareness about them. I know I shouldn't do it but I can't help myself!

[ging84]

Bennet said:

If I'm doing 70 in lane one and catch up a line of 5 cars all doing 60 in lane 2, do I need to move to lane 3 to pass or not?

If there is no congestion you should as normal pass in lane 3.
On the motorway if it is congested you should avoid changing lanes and where possible you are obliged to maintain your speed to keep up with the traffic in your lane even if that means passing on the left. If you are the only car in your lane this does not mean you can simply maintain what ever speed you like, and it's usually a fair idiction that there isn't that much congestion.

[tenpenceshort]

Obliged by what?

[JonRB]

Is it just me that loathes the word "undertaking"? Not only is it inaccurate but it has a Daily Mail inflammatoryness about it too.

It's overtaking on the left rather than the right. You've still overtaken the vehicle you are passing regardless of which side you are passing on.

[Mouse1903]

Undertaking to me is a blantant maneouver, where one intentionally moves to the inner lane, passes car(s) on their right hand side and intentionally decides to pull out in front of these cars.

I regularly do 55-60 on my commute home on the dual carraigeway and therefore find myself sitting in the inside lane. Quite frequently everyone will be in the outside lane doing 65+ with about a car's length between them and will just suddenly slow down to a point where I am "undertaking" them. As I'm going at a constant speed I don't see the point in me slowing down or having to pull out and join there lane. If people actually used the lanes better then this wouldn't happen.

[jaf01uk]

And round and round we go again Lane 1 Lane 3 Lane 1 to pass a dawdler in lane 2?

[Hol]

To answer one of the OP's questions:

Your instructor/driving test should have taught you to overtake on the right of traffic unless you are in a slow moving queue, where changing lane is not possible (wall of traffic etc).


I agree its an annoyance and extremely tempting to keep to your same pace when you have a retard sitting in the middle lane of three, or more worrying the third lane of four.


The trouble is that people will always claim ignorance of the rules, based on their own re-interpretation - as nobody has reinforced the standard on them.




Perhaps it is time for a compulsary written refresher test after a certain time.
The online technology is there to facilitate it.

[JonRB]

Hol said:

The trouble is that people will always claim ignorance of the rules, based on their own re-interpretation - as nobody has reinforced the standard on them.

So quote which "rule" it is then. Because my understanding is that, as Von and TPS have stated, you would have to be specifically prosecuted under the more general terms of poor driving standards rather than a rule specifically precluding overtaking on the inside as you are implying.

Edited by JonRB on Monday 4th August 13:27

[Gixer]

Osinjak said:

I find myself doing this more and more often to the point where I've normalised it. I also see it more and more often from others as well which suggests I'm not alone. It's so frustrating really, I just wish these mongs who trundle along in the middle lane would just wake up and have a bit of awareness about them. I know I shouldn't do it but I can't help myself!

This and its getting worse. They all sit up each others arse, usually until they are completely along side their off slip where they perform their last minute cut across the lanes to exit. I find myself passing at 70mph and often they must only be doing 40, 50mph tops. It's not just car drivers now either. The number of lorry drivers and coach drivers hogging the lanes on the new 4 lane sections of the M25 is ridiculous.

Now we have these 4 lane roads, something needs to be done. We have, at great expense, an empty unusable lane. It's ridiculous.

Von, why aren't these people being pulled?

[Gixer]

Hol said:

To answer one of the OP's questions:

Your instructor/driving test should have taught you to overtake on the right of traffic unless you are in a slow moving queue, where changing lane is not possible (wall of traffic etc).


I agree its an annoyance and extremely tempting to keep to your same pace when you have a retard sitting in the middle lane of three, or more worrying the third lane of four.


The trouble is that people will always claim ignorance of the rules, based on their own re-interpretation - as nobody has reinforced the standard on them.




Perhaps it is time for a compulsary written refresher test after a certain time.
The online technology is there to facilitate it.

Going by the number of times I've seen driver instructor cars with only one person in them hogging lanes 2 or 3 of the 4 lane section of the M2, or people lane hogging with a 'P' on the back of their car, I can't help but think training doesn't work

[tenpenceshort]

Gixer said:

Von, why aren't these people being pulled?

They're not being pulled because there are virtually no traffic police left to do the pulling. I've been doing 1000 miles a week in recent times and barely ever see a traffic car on the motorway.

The proliferation of Gatso, SPECS and HATOs has provided justification for Police Forces to reduce their spending on road policing units, to the detriment of road behaviour.

[ging84]

tenpenceshort said:

Obliged by what?

The rule which say you must not hold up a long queue of traffic, perhaps simply obliged was the best description, because you might not always hold up a queue of traffic behind you if you didn't try and keep up, but in congestion that will generally be the situation

[Gixer]

tenpenceshort said:

Gixer said:

Von, why aren't these people being pulled?

They're not being pulled because there are virtually no traffic police left to do the pulling. I've been doing 1000 miles a week in recent times and barely ever see a traffic car on the motorway.

The proliferation of Gatso, SPECS and HATOs has provided justification for Police Forces to reduce their spending on road policing units, to the detriment of road behaviour.

I agree, I do a similar mileage and you're right all this 'speed kills' crap we've had for the last couple of decades has resulted in less policing and a huge increase in crap drivers. Unfortunately until there's a Gatso that can catch a crap driver (whether that be a texter, tailgater, hogger, drink driver, driving faster than the conditions etc) we are left full of a road of mongs.

I was on a 60mph single carriage way road last week. I was doing 50mph with nobody behind me. Woman waiting to turn right in front of me waits until I'm close, plods out in front of me making no attempt to get up to any kind of speed. Leaving me to take avoiding action. I then get all the flashing of the headlights and all the lip at the junction further down the road. How can she possibly think she was in the right? Absolutely beyond me.

I have to work on call every fourth weekend, the standard of driving at the weekends is so now so bad you just have to see the funny side otherwise you'd go mad

[Hol]

JonRB said:

Hol said:

The trouble is that people will always claim ignorance of the rules, based on their own re-interpretation - as nobody has reinforced the standard on them.

So quote which "rule" it is then. Because my understanding is that, as Von and TPS have stated, you would have to be specifically prosecuted under the more general terms of poor driving standards rather than a rule specifically precluding overtaking on the inside as you are implying.

Edited by JonRB on Monday 4th August 13:27

Jeez!! Why are you so upset that people are saying thats its bad to undertake?
Have we threatened to take away your favourite 'toy' or something??


How about the highway code? (that thing associated with the driving test and driving instructor that I mentioned in my full post - that you just quoted one line out of?).

Hol said:

To answer one of the OP's questions:

Your instructor/driving test should have taught you to overtake on the right of traffic unless you are in a slow moving queue, where changing lane is not possible (wall of traffic etc).

We all read it, and knew that we were supposed to abide by it (no matter who your parents are/were):



Rule 163 is all about overtaking, and pretty clearly indicates that overtaking is only to be done to the right (unless you ignore all the lefty bits they mention - that is):

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out

not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle

move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in

take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road

only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so

stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

Edited by Hol on Monday 4th August 13:59

[JonRB]

Hol said:

How about the highway code? (that thing associated with the driving test and driving instructor that I mentioned in my full post - that you just quoted one line out of?).

We all read it, and knew that we were supposed to abide by it (no matter who your parents are/were):

The Highway Code has both advice and instructions.

If it says you "should not" do something, it is advising you. If it says you "must not", it is telling you that it is against the law.

All of the stuff you quoted says "should not". So you are quoting advice, not a rule.