Council land dispute

[KMud]

We bought a property knowing there was a dispute on the land at the back of the garden, an area of ~7x35 m which backs onto common land. We understood it was disputed, and although it would pain us to lose it, the garden is acceptably sized without it (though appreciably smaller!), so we bought the property (heart over head). Although we knew we were potentially taking on a fight, the vendor indicated that the land had been used as part of the property since at least the 1970s, and so even if the land were 'grabbed', the clock had run out so to speak...but maintained he thought it was a mapping issue. The dispute started because the vendor brought in a small backhoe to clear the area, which a neighbour reported to the council. We were told the digger was merely clearing heavy scrub which had been left to overgrow by the owner prior to the vendor, an elderly lady, who could not manage upkeep on the whole garden. We are now told by our neighbours that the vendor took down a fence to clear that scrub, although the neighbour that lodged the complaint with the Council is now deceased. To further confuse matters, I have been in contact with a further prior owner of our property, and she believes that she used the land for composting, vaguely corroborating the vendor's story. There is a Council fence at the back of the disputed area which stops access to a methane pipe, but apparently there was a further fence along a line of trees (the one which was supposedly taken down by the vendor).

Unfortunately, because I contacted the Council on an unrelated issue (I wanted to know whether they had any responsibility for a wall running along the side of our property, separating us from some common land), the dispute at the back is now reignited, I suppose because we are under their scrutiny. The vendor showed us a letter from 2009 saying the Council say the disputed land is theirs, and that they will plant Hawthorn whips to mark the area, though this never happened.

What is the best tact here? I am afraid I am going to come home one day and find the Council have fought their way in and blocked us out of the disputed bit. It would seem somewhat spiteful, in so far as they would have to fight through bracken and partially take down their own fence to gain access. I feel if the vendor did take down a Council fence that the land is indeed likely the Council's, and we should seek redress from the vendor, although I don't know if this is likely to succeed. I would hope that the complaint from the now deceased lady would say there was a fence and now there isn't, providing adequate proof(?).

My take is to talk to the land registry to establish if there is a mapping issue (as per the vendor's opinion). Talking to the Council about the complaint may or may not spur them into action, so I am somewhat hesitant to talk with them. I would like to build a garage on this land at some point.

This is South Gloucestershire, if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance, I often read this forum and appreciate the knowledge of some of the contributors. I will talk to our conveyancing solicitor, but frankly I think some on here are better

[herewego]

You can get copies of land registry maps for registered land both yours and your neighbours directly from the website for a small charge.

[Mr GrimNasty]

"We bought a property knowing there was a dispute on the land at the back of the garden, an area of ~7x35 m which backs onto common land."

And you expect to sue someone because it has bit you on the bum! Errrrrr - no.

[KMud]

Mr GrimNasty said:

"We bought a property knowing there was a dispute on the land at the back of the garden, an area of ~7x35 m which backs onto common land."

And you expect to sue someone because it has bit you on the bum! Errrrrr - no.

Only if we were willfully mislead.

[Alicat]

I bought a property that had a similar situation in that at the rear of the property there was a chunk of land that belonged to the council and it had not been maintained. It was overgrown, had dead trees etc. I approached the council and asked to buy it, the response initially was to ask for an excessive sum of money, to which my reply was no thanks and you had better start maintaining it and repairing the fences. I finally ended up with a low valuation from the district valuer and I got to buy it for a sensible sum of money.

It didn't end there because when my solicitor went to register the land the Land Registry had already got it included with my property! Then the council overlooked a covenant and they ended up retaining liability for maintaining the boundary fence.

Have you tried tried offering to purchase the land?

[Alicat]

I bought a property that had a similar situation in that at the rear of the property there was a chunk of land that belonged to the council and it had not been maintained. It was overgrown, had dead trees etc. I approached the council and asked to buy it, the response initially was to ask for an excessive sum of money, to which my reply was no thanks and you had better start maintaining it and repairing the fences. I finally ended up with a low valuation from the district valuer and I got to buy it for a sensible sum of money.

It didn't end there because when my solicitor went to register the land the Land Registry had already got it included with my property! Then the council overlooked a covenant and they ended up retaining liability for maintaining the boundary fence.

Have you tried tried offering to purchase the land?

[KMud]

It's a thought, I wonder what it is worth (it didn't affect us getting a mortgage). I did try to talk to the Council dispassionately about the side wall as I am sure they get moaned at all day, but they went straight into moaning at me about the back, and so this sort of avenue didn't get to be explored...!

[JQ]

KMud said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

"We bought a property knowing there was a dispute on the land at the back of the garden, an area of ~7x35 m which backs onto common land."

And you expect to sue someone because it has bit you on the bum! Errrrrr - no.

Only if we were willfully mislead.

How would you have been mislead? You were informed of a dispute prior to purchase, it was then your solicitor's responsibility (upon your instructions) to fully investigate that dispute and advise you accordingly. You can't expect the vendor of a house to give you free legal advice.

Another option available if the Council rules out purchase it to take a licence of the land at a nominal rent (say £5 per year). This is a common practice in that the Council don't lose the right to the land, but are no longer responsible for it's maintenance. The reality is these agreements tend to run indefinitely, so whilst the land may not add value to your house, it does likely mean you'll get use of it for the duration of your ownership. Plus such licences can and are transferred to new owners. Many of the houses surrounding my local park have doubled the size of their gardens through such a process.

[KMud]

JQ said:

How would you have been mislead? You were informed of a dispute prior to purchase, it was then your solicitor's responsibility (upon your instructions) to fully investigate that dispute and advise you accordingly. You can't expect the vendor of a house to give you free legal advice.

I think there is a difference between clearing some scrub on land that you believe is part of the property (what we were told), and taking down a Council fence and claiming part of the common. If the vendor did take down a Council fence that would appear calculated and wrong.

JQ said:

Another option available if the Council rules out purchase it to take a licence of the land at a nominal rent (say £5 per year). This is a common practice in that the Council don't lose the right to the land, but are no longer responsible for it's maintenance. The reality is these agreements tend to run indefinitely, so whilst the land may not add value to your house, it does likely mean you'll get use of it for the duration of your ownership. Plus such licences can and are transferred to new owners. Many of the houses surrounding my local park have doubled the size of their gardens through such a process.

Thanks for another avenue to explore, would I be able to build on it though? I'm guessing not.

[TurricanII]

KMud said:

The vendor showed us a letter from 2009 saying the Council say the disputed land is theirs

When did you see this letter? Regardless of fences and the fact that the vendor thought that there was a mapping error, this letter signals that you are facing disappointment in future or a long and infuriating process trying to acquire the land.

Perhaps there are other utilities in the area and the council needs to be able to dig up the land without worrying about anyone else. Dial before you dig!

[KMud]

TurricanII said:

When did you see this letter? Regardless of fences and the fact that the vendor thought that there was a mapping error, this letter signals that you are facing disappointment in future or a long and infuriating process trying to acquire the land.

Perhaps there are other utilities in the area and the council needs to be able to dig up the land without worrying about anyone else. Dial before you dig!

We saw the letter during the buying process. I reserve the right to be miffed later (infuriated is a bit strong), but as of now I am calm and still trying to understand whether to:

• talk to the Council at length, explore buying/renting the land if they can't be convinced the land is already ours (although as public, common land I doubt they can do this)
• ignore the Council, build a garage on the land, fight them as/when they object
• seek redress from vendor if he is shown to have lied about taking down a Council fence
• live a garage-less life

[TurricanII]

KMud said:

We saw the letter during the buying process. I reserve the right to be miffed later (infuriated is a bit strong), but as of now I am calm and still trying to understand whether to:

• talk to the Council at length, explore buying/renting the land if they can't be convinced the land is already ours (although as public, common land I doubt they can do this)
• ignore the Council, build a garage on the land, fight them as/when they object
• seek redress from vendor if he is shown to have lied about taking down a Council fence
• live a garage-less life

Option one or four. But you should know exactly what you own, speak to your conveyancer. This is probably the most important reason for using a conveyanced. The council are very well versed in forcing the removal of unlawful buildings. If the vendor showed you a letter from the council staking their claim then what more could they have done? You are still lead by your heart and not your head.

[herewego]

Is this piece of land registered and if so is it shown in the registry as owned by the local authority?

[Mr GrimNasty]

KMud said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

"We bought a property knowing there was a dispute on the land at the back of the garden, an area of ~7x35 m which backs onto common land."

And you expect to sue someone because it has bit you on the bum! Errrrrr - no.

Only if we were willfully mislead.

You knew in all probability the land did not belong to the house and the council had claimed it. Any other detail you were given is fluff. End of.

[clarkey]

TurricanII said:

Option one or four. But you should know exactly what you own, speak to your conveyancer. This is probably the most important reason for using a conveyanced. The council are very well versed in forcing the removal of unlawful buildings. If the vendor showed you a letter from the council staking their claim then what more could they have done? You are still lead by your heart and not your head.

As its common land, option 1 won't be possible. The council aren't able to sell or rent out common land. They may swap the land for a similar area elsewhere, but I would suggest that you don't put a garage there without their consent, as they won't give up. If you don't build on it they'll probably keep quiet.

[JQ]

KMud said:

JQ said:

How would you have been mislead? You were informed of a dispute prior to purchase, it was then your solicitor's responsibility (upon your instructions) to fully investigate that dispute and advise you accordingly. You can't expect the vendor of a house to give you free legal advice.

I think there is a difference between clearing some scrub on land that you believe is part of the property (what we were told), and taking down a Council fence and claiming part of the common. If the vendor did take down a Council fence that would appear calculated and wrong.

You can safely remove all aspirations of having any recourse to the vendor about this. There was a dispute, you were told about it, it was then your obligation to satisfy yourself as to the likely long term outcome of that dispute. Of course the 2 parties to the dispute will have different views - that's the very nature of a dispute. It was for you to then get an impartial view - what was the advice of your solicitor at the time, did they speak to the Council? That's the only person you'll have recourse against, if they were negligent in the advice they gave you.

If you want to build on the land, then you're going to have to get it resolved, I certainly wouldn't spend money building something without the whole issue being resolved. If you don't think your solicitor was negligent, then they'd be my first port of call to get some proper advice. And if they were negligent then find a new decent solicitor.

[TooLateForAName]

When you say 'common land' do you mean real common land as in registered under the act as a common or green?

[KMud]

The solicitor's advice was along the lines of "there is a dispute"...the same as the surveyor's advice was along the lines of "there is a problem with the roof", i.e., "you now know there's an issue, I've done my bit, seek an expert".

I think I'm minded to build on what is undisputed, and continue to maintain what was possibly grabbed until such a time that the Council breaks in.

Thanks for the responses above of a neutral tone

[KMud]

TooLateForAName said:

When you say 'common land' do you mean real common land as in registered under the act as a common or green?

I think it's a green, but more research required.

[KMud]

JQ said:

You can safely remove all aspirations of having any recourse to the vendor about this. There was a dispute, you were told about it, it was then your obligation to satisfy yourself as to the likely long term outcome of that dispute. Of course the 2 parties to the dispute will have different views - that's the very nature of a dispute. It was for you to then get an impartial view - what was the advice of your solicitor at the time, did they speak to the Council? That's the only person you'll have recourse against, if they were negligent in the advice they gave you.

If you want to build on the land, then you're going to have to get it resolved, I certainly wouldn't spend money building something without the whole issue being resolved. If you don't think your solicitor was negligent, then they'd be my first port of call to get some proper advice. And if they were negligent then find a new decent solicitor.

Good to know I can snatch land, lie about the provenance, and have no liability. I may have found a new line of work