Intentionally delaying declared V5 change of ownership date.
Discussion
Something I`ve not come across, so I thought I`d ask for advice on here.
I`m afraid it`s one of those "I`ve got this friend who has a problem...." posts
Guy at work owns a car. Apprentice at work agrees to buy it.
Because the apprentice doesn`t earn a lot, they agreed he could pay in installments and once he`d made the final payment, he`d be given the keys.
This was agreed in December 20113. The owner SORNED the car and it`s been sat ever since. He has a new car, didn`t need to move this one quickly and was helping out the apprentice by allowing him to pay a bit each month.
The apprentice looked at insurance quotes back in December, he knew the payments would be completed this month, so put in his age (19) and NCB (1 year) as it would be when he took ownership, ie October 2014. He`s been driving round in his old car which he will sell after he gets his `new` car this weekend.
He makes the last payment this week and is looking to insure and re tax the car on Friday.
He`s kept checking the insurance on the website and it hasn`t really changed much, but when he logged back onto the insurance website this week, the quote was re-run and the premium has gone up significantly.
He`s spent a bit of time trying to get his head round it and he`s found it`s all down to when he took full ownership of the car.
If he puts that he bought the car in October 2014, the premium is £2,100, which is what he put on the comparison site this week.
If he leaves everything else as it is, but puts the date from when he made the first payment, ie December 2013, the premium drops to £1,300. As I`m sure you can appreciate, this is a large amount of money for him.
He rang the DVLA to explain he wasn`t trying to `con` the insurance company, he DID agree to buy the car and make a payment in December, but the owner held onto the V5 and keys (by agreement) until he`d made all the payments. The DVLA person understood his situation and said he has to put the day the ownership is actually transferred, but he can include a covering letter which they MAY take into account.
He can put the date of change of ownership as December 2013 (when he paid the first installment). The problem with doing this is the Guy who has sold the car could then face a fine for failing to notify the DVLA of change of ownership back in December.
The apprentice has offered to pay any fine the old owner may incur, it`ll still be cheaper than the £800 premium difference, but as we`ve discussed it at work, someone suggested this could be seen as him trying to make a false declaration on his insurance which could in turn invalidate his cover. ?
The apprentice is now stuck. He can`t really afford the extra £800 premium and the guy selling it is obviously not thrilled at the idea of receiving a fine from the DVLA for failing to notify a change of ownership if they put December 2013 at the date of transfer.
With hindsight, they`d have sent the V5 off back in December, the guy selling it would have kept the keys and not handed them over until October when all the payments were made. We know the apprentice and he`s not likely to do a runner with the car, but it`s obviously too late now.
Any suggestions ?
I`m afraid it`s one of those "I`ve got this friend who has a problem...." posts
Guy at work owns a car. Apprentice at work agrees to buy it.
Because the apprentice doesn`t earn a lot, they agreed he could pay in installments and once he`d made the final payment, he`d be given the keys.
This was agreed in December 20113. The owner SORNED the car and it`s been sat ever since. He has a new car, didn`t need to move this one quickly and was helping out the apprentice by allowing him to pay a bit each month.
The apprentice looked at insurance quotes back in December, he knew the payments would be completed this month, so put in his age (19) and NCB (1 year) as it would be when he took ownership, ie October 2014. He`s been driving round in his old car which he will sell after he gets his `new` car this weekend.
He makes the last payment this week and is looking to insure and re tax the car on Friday.
He`s kept checking the insurance on the website and it hasn`t really changed much, but when he logged back onto the insurance website this week, the quote was re-run and the premium has gone up significantly.
He`s spent a bit of time trying to get his head round it and he`s found it`s all down to when he took full ownership of the car.
If he puts that he bought the car in October 2014, the premium is £2,100, which is what he put on the comparison site this week.
If he leaves everything else as it is, but puts the date from when he made the first payment, ie December 2013, the premium drops to £1,300. As I`m sure you can appreciate, this is a large amount of money for him.
He rang the DVLA to explain he wasn`t trying to `con` the insurance company, he DID agree to buy the car and make a payment in December, but the owner held onto the V5 and keys (by agreement) until he`d made all the payments. The DVLA person understood his situation and said he has to put the day the ownership is actually transferred, but he can include a covering letter which they MAY take into account.
He can put the date of change of ownership as December 2013 (when he paid the first installment). The problem with doing this is the Guy who has sold the car could then face a fine for failing to notify the DVLA of change of ownership back in December.
The apprentice has offered to pay any fine the old owner may incur, it`ll still be cheaper than the £800 premium difference, but as we`ve discussed it at work, someone suggested this could be seen as him trying to make a false declaration on his insurance which could in turn invalidate his cover. ?
The apprentice is now stuck. He can`t really afford the extra £800 premium and the guy selling it is obviously not thrilled at the idea of receiving a fine from the DVLA for failing to notify a change of ownership if they put December 2013 at the date of transfer.
With hindsight, they`d have sent the V5 off back in December, the guy selling it would have kept the keys and not handed them over until October when all the payments were made. We know the apprentice and he`s not likely to do a runner with the car, but it`s obviously too late now.
Any suggestions ?
For the 47 kabillionth time, the V5 has NOTHING repeat NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with ownership. It tells you who the REGISTERED KEEPER of the car is. As a handy hint, every V5 says right on it that it is not proof of ownership. The words "not proof of ownership" are very complex legal words, which in ordinary English mean "not proof of ownership".
In this case, it is a bad idea to fib to the insurance company or to the DVLA. When did the dude actually become owner of the car? When did he become keeper of the car?
PS: in case this is not already clear, owner and keeper are not always the same person.
In this case, it is a bad idea to fib to the insurance company or to the DVLA. When did the dude actually become owner of the car? When did he become keeper of the car?
PS: in case this is not already clear, owner and keeper are not always the same person.
oldcynic said:
How does the premium change if the apprentice has owned the car for 2 or 3 months? Has he shopped around?
For the sake of £800 he could take ownership, leave the car SORNed for 2 more months, then tax and insure it after Christmas if the quote improves by enough.
It`s some quirk of the comparison sites. If he puts 31st Dec 2013, the premium is £1,300. Any date after Jan 1st 2014 and it`s £2,100. For the sake of £800 he could take ownership, leave the car SORNed for 2 more months, then tax and insure it after Christmas if the quote improves by enough.
Not really sure WHY it does that, but he`s tried several comparison sites and phoned a couple of companies directly and they are all the same, which seems odd to me, but I`ve seen him doing it and that`s the only thing he changes yet it has a big impact on the premium.
Last resort he will have to SORN it for another couple of months, but there is no guarantee that the premium will drop on Jan 1st if he registers the change of ownership as this week.
ks. Ring up a company and speak to an actual person. Try Chaucer Direct. Breadvan72 said:
For the 47 kabillionth time, the V5 has NOTHING repeat NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with ownership. It tells you who the REGISTERED KEEPER of the car is. As a handy hint, every V5 says right on it that it is not proof of ownership. The words "not proof of ownership" are very complex legal words, which in ordinary English mean "not proof of ownership".
I know ! My fault, I think I`ve worded it badly from discussing it at work today Breadvan72 said:
In this case, it is a bad idea to fib to the insurance company or to the DVLA. When did the dude actually become owner of the car? When did he become keeper of the car?
That`s the question isn`t it. I`d have said he didn`t become the owner AND keeper until he paid the last installment this week. He only paid a deposit last December.He has phoned a couple of companies, including his current insurer, but I don`t know who he spoke to.
Wh00sher said:
It`s some quirk of the comparison sites. If he puts 31st Dec 2013, the premium is £1,300. Any date after Jan 1st 2014 and it`s £2,100.
Not really sure WHY it does that, but he`s tried several comparison sites and phoned a couple of companies directly and they are all the same, which seems odd to me, but I`ve seen him doing it and that`s the only thing he changes yet it has a big impact on the premium.
Quickish car for a young 'un, by any chance?Not really sure WHY it does that, but he`s tried several comparison sites and phoned a couple of companies directly and they are all the same, which seems odd to me, but I`ve seen him doing it and that`s the only thing he changes yet it has a big impact on the premium.
I'm wondering if it's a case of actuarial stats saying that most yoof with this type of car stack 'em in the first few months. If they survive that, they're typically a fairly low risk.
As others have said, all it says is that your colleague is the keeper at present, and is transferring that to the apprentice now. No harm, no foul. As for the ownership, well, I'd say that the ownership only transferred (as per their agreement) at the point of the last payment. So looks like the kid may have to put the car to one side for a year and keep driving his clunker.
So it's down to the statistics ? I'd be phoning up the insurance company and saying I had a quote on line for the lower figure and give the ref number, and ask if we can go through all the questions again, and then getting all 'churlish' when the price is higher. I reckon there's a chance that they'll do it at the lower price.
Wh00sher said:
Breadvan72 said:
For the 47 kabillionth time, the V5 has NOTHING repeat NOTHING repeat NOTHING to do with ownership. It tells you who the REGISTERED KEEPER of the car is. As a handy hint, every V5 says right on it that it is not proof of ownership. The words "not proof of ownership" are very complex legal words, which in ordinary English mean "not proof of ownership".
I know ! My fault, I think I`ve worded it badly from discussing it at work today Breadvan72 said:
In this case, it is a bad idea to fib to the insurance company or to the DVLA. When did the dude actually become owner of the car? When did he become keeper of the car?
That`s the question isn`t it. I`d have said he didn`t become the owner AND keeper until he paid the last installment this week. He only paid a deposit last December.He has phoned a couple of companies, including his current insurer, but I don`t know who he spoke to.
TooMany2cvs said:
Quickish car for a young 'un, by any chance?
I'm wondering if it's a case of actuarial stats saying that most yoof with this type of car stack 'em in the first few months. If they survive that, they're typically a fairly low risk.
Yeah, quickish. Just seemed a bit odd when changing the date from Jan 1st 2014 back to Dec 31st 2013 knocked £800 off. I'm wondering if it's a case of actuarial stats saying that most yoof with this type of car stack 'em in the first few months. If they survive that, they're typically a fairly low risk.
Cyberprog said:
So looks like the kid may have to put the car to one side for a year and keep driving his clunker.
I doubt he can afford to have the `new` car sat there uninsured for a year whilst driving round in his current one.wibble cb said:
So really all he did was what thousands of other drivers do, buy a car on tick, and make payments till they 'own' the car outright.....
No, not really. Usually you drive the car whilst paying for it. 
Wh00sher said:
I doubt he can afford to have the `new` car sat there uninsured for a year whilst driving round in his current one.
He's managed since December. The only difference is that he's not having to save up for payments for it now, so he's actually got more in his pocket each month.As far as I see, the contract of sale, either verbal or written, says he doesn't own the car until he has paid for it in full. So December 2013 has got nothing to do with it, he doesn't own it until he pays for it this month.
And as Breadvan said the date on the V5 has nothing to do with ownership, if there was a legal challenge over ownership, a receipt would be needed.
I suppose there is a possibility you could get the current owner to write a receipt saying he owned it from October 2013, but assuming the DVLA have not been told of the change of keeper yet, that might be a tricky conversation.
And as Breadvan said the date on the V5 has nothing to do with ownership, if there was a legal challenge over ownership, a receipt would be needed.
I suppose there is a possibility you could get the current owner to write a receipt saying he owned it from October 2013, but assuming the DVLA have not been told of the change of keeper yet, that might be a tricky conversation.
The problem there would not be with DVLA, because change of ownership need not connote change of keeper, and the seller could have sold the car but remained keeper of it. The real problem there would be fibbing to the insurer, which is never a good idea. The risk assessment by the underwriters presumably works on "period driving this hotbox without stacking it", as suggested above.
Just to finish off. I hate those threads where you never hear the resolution
As there was no easy/legal way that the Apprentice and seller were comfortable with regarding the Dec 2013 date, he is leaving the car parked up until Jan 2015, if the insurance drops in the `new year`, he`s going to insure it and sell his existing car. If it stays at the higher premium of £2,100, he`s selling it and keeping his existing car.
As there was no easy/legal way that the Apprentice and seller were comfortable with regarding the Dec 2013 date, he is leaving the car parked up until Jan 2015, if the insurance drops in the `new year`, he`s going to insure it and sell his existing car. If it stays at the higher premium of £2,100, he`s selling it and keeping his existing car.
Had the same problem with a comparison website that be feeling all confused. Buying daughter's first car, 1.2 Fiat grande Punto base spec, just about the cheapest, and slowest thing on four wheels for an 18 year old to insure. Got quote earlier in the day, brought car, went back to quote to purchase insurance and it had gone up 500 quid. Discovered that by changing the purchase date to different days of that particular week I could make the quote go up by another 400 quid on top of the previous increase.
Much head scratching happened, and another website was tried to go and compare the prices. A far better quote by Admiral was found, much cheaper than the original quote. Rang the insurance up and in the end got insurance, fully comp for an 18 year old for less than a grand. Pretty damn good for first insurance!
My advice is try all the comparison websites, and also the company's that don't appear on them. It takes time but you can eventually get a good deal if you put the leg work in.
Much head scratching happened, and another website was tried to go and compare the prices. A far better quote by Admiral was found, much cheaper than the original quote. Rang the insurance up and in the end got insurance, fully comp for an 18 year old for less than a grand. Pretty damn good for first insurance!
My advice is try all the comparison websites, and also the company's that don't appear on them. It takes time but you can eventually get a good deal if you put the leg work in.
That`s pretty much what he`s finding, the date has an effect, but the duration of ownership appears to be making the biggest difference at the moment. We`ve all told him to ring all the brokers and insurance companies, but at the end of the day, it`s up to him whether he does or not.
Like many his age, they seem to prefer doing it online rather than actually picking up the phone and speaking to a real person...
Like many his age, they seem to prefer doing it online rather than actually picking up the phone and speaking to a real person...
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