They've got their hands on my organ.
Discussion
I'll keep this brief.
I took a synth in for repair as one of the keys stopped working. That was all that was wrong with it.
It was repaired and returned, only it came back more broken; the key worked but it had major issues switching on and booting up.
It went back to the repairer to be checked. They returned it again saying it had been fixed. It turned out to be no better than before, if anything it was worse. It's now back with them and I've heard new parts have been ordered.
During the process of dismantling it to repair the broken key something has gone awry. It's 25 years old so i appreciate that electronics can fail BUT my question is:
Am I in a strong position to argue against paying any - or at least the full - cost of the additional repairs, bearing in mind it was 99% working before and 0% working after they had their hands on it?
I took a synth in for repair as one of the keys stopped working. That was all that was wrong with it.
It was repaired and returned, only it came back more broken; the key worked but it had major issues switching on and booting up.
It went back to the repairer to be checked. They returned it again saying it had been fixed. It turned out to be no better than before, if anything it was worse. It's now back with them and I've heard new parts have been ordered.
During the process of dismantling it to repair the broken key something has gone awry. It's 25 years old so i appreciate that electronics can fail BUT my question is:
Am I in a strong position to argue against paying any - or at least the full - cost of the additional repairs, bearing in mind it was 99% working before and 0% working after they had their hands on it?
Supply of goods and services act, I think : http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/29
Part 2 said:
13 Implied term about care and skill.
In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.
In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.
marshalla said:
Supply of goods and services act, I think : http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/29
Is it reasonable for a 25 year electronic device to break when taken apart. Part 2 said:
13 Implied term about care and skill.
In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.
In a contract for the supply of a service where the supplier is acting in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the supplier will carry out the service with reasonable care and skill.
I would say it probably is.
voyds9 said:
Is it reasonable for a 25 year electronic device to break when taken apart.
I would say it probably is.
And is it reasonable to expect a "professional" repairer to be aware of this and take extra care/check for damage during/after attempts to repair it ? (or to refuse the job because the risk is too high)I would say it probably is.
I would say it probably is.
MoggieMinor said:
Well I certainly would. The D50 is one of the most legendary synths of all time. I've a fair bit of Roland gear but never had a 50. Yet.
It is a great bit of kit - for the money they go for it's well worth picking one up, there's nothing that sounds like it. I've had pretty much all of the classic Roland gear too; Jupiters, Junos, TRX0Xs, SH, MC, TB, JX3P but the ones that are keepers are the ones I initially thought would be the first I'd part with: JD800, D50, Alpha Juno 1 and JP8000.marshalla said:
voyds9 said:
Is it reasonable for a 25 year electronic device to break when taken apart.
I would say it probably is.
And is it reasonable to expect a "professional" repairer to be aware of this and take extra care/check for damage during/after attempts to repair it ? (or to refuse the job because the risk is too high)I would say it probably is.
I would say it probably is.
I've taken a few Roland synths apart in my time, and it's really a horrible job.
They're put together like Chinese puzzles, and you really have to dismantle the whole thing to get the keyboard out in order to clean the key contacts.
And, with all manner of wires running everywhere, it's all too easy to get a wire trapped or a connector skew.
All I can suggest is that you get someone with suitable experience to take it apart, check everything and put it back together very carefully.
It may be that there's some electronics that needs replacing, but, in my experience, it's more likely to be a wire or dodgy connector.
They're put together like Chinese puzzles, and you really have to dismantle the whole thing to get the keyboard out in order to clean the key contacts.
And, with all manner of wires running everywhere, it's all too easy to get a wire trapped or a connector skew.
All I can suggest is that you get someone with suitable experience to take it apart, check everything and put it back together very carefully.
It may be that there's some electronics that needs replacing, but, in my experience, it's more likely to be a wire or dodgy connector.
Phatboy317 said:
I've taken a few Roland synths apart in my time, and it's really a horrible job.
They're put together like Chinese puzzles, and you really have to dismantle the whole thing to get the keyboard out in order to clean the key contacts.
And, with all manner of wires running everywhere, it's all too easy to get a wire trapped or a connector skew.
All I can suggest is that you get someone with suitable experience to take it apart, check everything and put it back together very carefully.
It may be that there's some electronics that needs replacing, but, in my experience, it's more likely to be a wire or dodgy connector.
I think you're right; something has been dislodged or crushed in the putting back together stage. The fact I was told today that a new part is on order leads me to believe something was damaged. Maybe a wire, chip or connector as the synth did come alive on the 99th time out of 100 times of trying. It was then playable for about 10 minutes until it crashed. Something was getting warm and causing the problem. They're put together like Chinese puzzles, and you really have to dismantle the whole thing to get the keyboard out in order to clean the key contacts.
And, with all manner of wires running everywhere, it's all too easy to get a wire trapped or a connector skew.
All I can suggest is that you get someone with suitable experience to take it apart, check everything and put it back together very carefully.
It may be that there's some electronics that needs replacing, but, in my experience, it's more likely to be a wire or dodgy connector.
Phil303 said:
I think you're right; something has been dislodged or crushed in the putting back together stage.
This would suggest it is their fault.Phil303 said:
We are talking about a professional service here; they deal with equipment far more fragile and expensive than what I've given them. It's bad luck for them that something has failed while being disturbed during the initial repair.
Whereas this would suggest it isn't their fault.The repairer is liable for mistakes that they have made while carrying out the repair, they are not liable for anything that failed during the repair or while it was in their custody so long as they worked to a reasonable standard.
Obviously proving which one of the two has happened could get tricky.
marshalla said:
voyds9 said:
Is it reasonable for a 25 year electronic device to break when taken apart.
I would say it probably is.
And is it reasonable to expect a "professional" repairer to be aware of this and take extra care/check for damage during/after attempts to repair it ? (or to refuse the job because the risk is too high)I would say it probably is.
I would say it probably is.
If all possible outcomes and problems can be foreseen then there should be no risk to a doctor operating.
voyds9 said:
So why do people die on the operating table.
If all possible outcomes and problems can be foreseen then there should be no risk to a doctor operating.
Absurd comparison.If all possible outcomes and problems can be foreseen then there should be no risk to a doctor operating.
However - "informed consent" is the big difference. (aside from complexity and costs of liability insurance of course)
Edited by marshalla on Sunday 12th October 15:01
Phil303 said:
Phatboy317 said:
I've taken a few Roland synths apart in my time, and it's really a horrible job.
They're put together like Chinese puzzles, and you really have to dismantle the whole thing to get the keyboard out in order to clean the key contacts.
And, with all manner of wires running everywhere, it's all too easy to get a wire trapped or a connector skew.
All I can suggest is that you get someone with suitable experience to take it apart, check everything and put it back together very carefully.
It may be that there's some electronics that needs replacing, but, in my experience, it's more likely to be a wire or dodgy connector.
I think you're right; something has been dislodged or crushed in the putting back together stage. The fact I was told today that a new part is on order leads me to believe something was damaged. Maybe a wire, chip or connector as the synth did come alive on the 99th time out of 100 times of trying. It was then playable for about 10 minutes until it crashed. Something was getting warm and causing the problem. They're put together like Chinese puzzles, and you really have to dismantle the whole thing to get the keyboard out in order to clean the key contacts.
And, with all manner of wires running everywhere, it's all too easy to get a wire trapped or a connector skew.
All I can suggest is that you get someone with suitable experience to take it apart, check everything and put it back together very carefully.
It may be that there's some electronics that needs replacing, but, in my experience, it's more likely to be a wire or dodgy connector.
Just clocked your username, presumably you have TB303? Another iconic machine.
marshalla said:
voyds9 said:
So why do people die on the operating table.
If all possible outcomes and problems can be foreseen then there should be no risk to a doctor operating.
Absurd comparison.If all possible outcomes and problems can be foreseen then there should be no risk to a doctor operating.
However - "informed consent" is the big difference. (aside from complexity and costs of liability insurance of course)
Even informed consent has to be reasonable. Any professional or tradesman will typically discuss the risks of complications occurring during a repair or procedure but he can't cover everything and if he did nobody would ever get anything done!
If one in ten organs have consequential failures during repair then the repairer should have discussed that risk but if there is a 1/100 risk then maybe he wouldn't; for a 1/1000 chance it's very unlikely that it would get mentioned and while this wouldn't be unreasonable it also wouldn't necessarily be the repairers fault.
MoggieMinor said:
I hope this gets resolved then. Rolands do have something of a reputation about tricky dismantling although they are bulletproof compared to a certain hallowed synth of my dreams... What I would give for an OSCar.
Just clocked your username, presumably you have TB303? Another iconic machine.
Yup, my wife bought it for me in lieu of a wedding ring figuring it would mean more to me, and she was right. There's nothing that sounds like it. Some come close but the original is still the greatest. There's a Fatboy Slim story behind it too but now is not the place to bore everybody with that tale.Just clocked your username, presumably you have TB303? Another iconic machine.
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