warranty query

[mph999]

Hi guys,

Not me, but a friend had a timing chain replace on a JCW Mini back in June. Car still under warranty but this morning the chain snapped taking quite a bit of the engine with it.

The chains under warranty, but what about the damage to the engine.

Not BMW, it was an independent, though one with a good reputation.

Any idea where she stands legally if it gets messy ... Thanks in advance.

M

Edited by mph999 on Sunday 2nd November 14:26

Edited by mph999 on Sunday 2nd November 14:54

[twing]

I'm guessing it's all covered as the proximate cause of the damage is a covered item.

[SLCZ3]

Hmm, first who is the warranty by, is it a new car as in bought brand new or just new to him/her? secondly did the independent really change the timing chain? is it a trusted independent, thirdly what mileage is it and when is the official belt/chain change due.

[750turbo]

twing said:

I'm guessing it's all covered as the proximate cause of the damage is a covered item.

I agree, as in "Consequential Damage" but, getting the service provider (Dealer, repairer, supplier of failed parts, whoever...) to agree, is the hard part.

Any more details OP?

[ging84]

It's in less than 6 months, so even if the warranty does not cover it you can go back to your dealer, you can expect a repair or a partial refund unless the dealer can prove there was no fault when he sold it to you

[TooMany2cvs]

ging84 said:

It's in less than 6 months, so even if the warranty does not cover it you can go back to your dealer, you can expect a repair or a partial refund unless the dealer can prove there was no fault when he sold it to you

I think you're misreading the OP...

The chain was replaced in June. There's no word on when the car was purchased, nor is it relevant.

The question is whether the chain replacement was due to part failure (the chain manufacturer's responsibility, via the garage if they supplied and fitted), poor fitting (the garage's responsibility) or caused by some other component failure (the owner's responsibility). Unless either the garage or the chain manufacturer accept responsibility, the ball is in the owner's court to prove it.

[ging84]

ah yeah thought he bought it in june not had the chain replaced
that's pretty poor if a new chain went on it

[mph999]

Yep, car 2nd hand, but still has manufactures warranty I believe. Complication is chain was replaced by Indy when the car was bought.

[TooMany2cvs]

mph999 said:

but still has manufactures warranty I believe

So, umm, why wasn't the chain replaced by the dealer under that?

[mph999]

Not sure, all I know is it was replaced by the selling garage when the car was purchased ...

What a mess ... I can see this being problamatic to sort out as the work was done by the independent (though it apparently has a good reputatin as I mentioned before) which I presume will void any warranty for that part with BMW, unless perhaps it can be proven that the chain itself failed - though with the apparently in a bit of a mess, not sure how that could be determined.

[V8 Fettler]

Retain the chain (or whatever is left of it).

[Monkeylegend]

TooMany2cvs said:

mph999 said:

but still has manufactures warranty I believe

So, umm, why wasn't the chain replaced by the dealer under that?

I would be surprised if timing chains/cambelts are replaced under warranty if they are due a change as part of the service schedule. No different to brake pads etc, all serviceable items.

I would thing getting the main dealer to cover the engine damage under warranty will be difficult, as they didn't change the belt.

The only hope is probably goodwill with the independent, unless it can be established they fitted it incorrectly.

I suppose a lot will depend on why the belt was changed.

[TooMany2cvs]

Monkeylegend said:

I would be surprised if timing chains/cambelts are replaced under warranty if they are due a change as part of the service schedule.

Belt, yes. Chain...? No. I don't know of any engine that has a service interval for a cam chain.

[mph999]

Not uncommon for chains to be replaced on some Mini engines, they have a habit or wearing prematurely due to a slightly dodgy design.

OK, update - my mis-understanding, the car warranty has now expired.

The failure appeats to be the fact the crankshft pully wasn;t done up correctly when the chain was replaced, this has yet to be confired for sure.

Garage has directed my friend to BMW - how they have justified this I have no idea, looks like a long battle is about to start.

[SLCZ3]

mph999 said:

Not sure, all I know is it was replaced by the selling garage when the car was purchased ...

What a mess ... I can see this being problamatic to sort out as the work was done by the independent (though it apparently has a good reputatin as I mentioned before) which I presume will void any warranty for that part with BMW, unless perhaps it can be proven that the chain itself failed - though with the apparently in a bit of a mess, not sure how that could be determined.

The items below maybe useful
Extracted from Promini
MINI Cooper S R56 Engine Death Rattle Noise

Early symptoms of chain tensioner failure on the R55, R56, R57 models consists a slight rattling sound from the passenger side of the engine valve cover, even with engine running but not driven. The rattle sound will increase with speed, but go away when the engine reaches approximately 1800 R.P.M.


The sound will return when the engine returns to lower R.P.M.s during deceleration or idle. In early stages this sound may be more pronounced at colder temperatures, but in more severe cases the sound and vibration will be heard at all temperatures


Published 12 June 2013:
In the last year Watchdog has heard numerous cases of total engine failure in the BMW 1-Series, 3-Series and 5-Series vehicles built between 2007 and 2009. The cause of which have been because the timing chains have snapped causing the engine to come to a complete stand still.

The positioning of the timing chain link on the N47 engine is hidden away at the back, which according to engineers is a part of the engine which is supposed to last the life-time of the car and for that reason, is never serviced

Obviously BMW"s have a short lifetime plan.
Another cockup by a supposed quality German car brand.

[mph999]

Update:

BMW were paid to investigate, their conclusion is that the tensioner wasn't correctly tightened and was loose. Despite my original understanding, he chain didn't snap, so this surly can only be incorrect workmanship.

The garage that did the work are refusing all responsibility.

So will BMWs investigation stand as an independent report, or is another inspection by a 3rd party required ?

What should the next step be, I suspect small claims but are we at that stage yet - sorry for all the questions, any help appreciated.

M

[SLCZ3]

I would think as BMW are the "experts" then that would be sufficient, I think it will be small claims court route, if he defends you have the dealer report, if he does"nt then that is fine.

[Nezquick]

I had the same problem with my R56 MCS. Mine was a 57 plate and luckily I bought mine from an official MINI dealer. Within a few months of me buying it the chain started rattling.

In the end, the top of the engine needed rebuilding, new cams the lot. It would have been about a £4k repair bill had it not been for the warranty. I got rid of it shortly after that as I just didn't trust it again.

I believe that the symptoms start as a rattle (like mine did) and if not tended to quickly, this can cause the chain to snap/come loose causing huge damage.

Good luck - hope they manage to sort this out.

[Cerberaherts]

mph999 said:

Update:

BMW were paid to investigate, their conclusion is that the tensioner wasn't correctly tightened and was loose. Despite my original understanding, he chain didn't snap, so this surly can only be incorrect workmanship.

The garage that did the work are refusing all responsibility.

So will BMWs investigation stand as an independent report, or is another inspection by a 3rd party required ?

What should the next step be, I suspect small claims but are we at that stage yet - sorry for all the questions, any help appreciated.

M

If the tensioner wasn't fitted correctly, then it's the fault of whoever carried out the work. If the garage won't be held responsible it'll be a court case. Your friend needs to approach The dealer that inspected the aftermath and ask for a full detailed report that can be submitted to the court. I wouldn't be surprised if they wish no part it in it though, in which case your friend needs to pay for an Independent engineers report, which won't be cheap..

[barker22]

I had an auxillary belt replaced by an indy. This belt then snapped and took out the cambelt resulting in a full top end rebuild including all the associated labour costs and fluids/gaskets etc. The full cost was met by the indy who rebuild the engine. The only cost to me was an engineers report from a main dealer and the cost to trailer the car to the indy.