Fighting a CSA Appeal decision
Discussion
I have 2 children with my ex, they both live with her. One is just 18, the other 16. I paid all my CSA payments through them and always have for 10yrs+. I've been in the top 10% of wage earners all my life and so my children have had plenty of money to do all the things I wanted them to do. I also lent my ex half of the equity in our old house, saving her at least £25,000 to date and I paid CSA payments when not woking too.
However, 2 years ago I started my own business. It was a huge struggle and I made next to nothing in income, however my wife works so this was just about bearable financially. However, as a result I paid a lower amount to the CSA during that time.
Unfortunately my ex decided I was probably earning much more than I said and so, without any evidence to support this, took to me to court as part of the CSA process. Cutting a long story short, they asked me to provide a mass of personal financial information to show I was telling the truth. I provided most of it (I didn’t mind the court seeing my finances but was pissed off at them having to show my ex!) but was missing one or two minor bits of info that I simply didn't have. The court thus ruled against me, calculating that I owe something like 104 weeks at £235 + 15%!!!
Talking to a friend yesterday he said 'You've gone to court without a defence and so they have just ganged up on you.' He's right and I wish I'd realised that before now and so will appeal this decision. I didn’t stand up for myself and didn’t have anyone to do it for me. I should have taken a ‘You say I am lying, prove it’ stance rather than sit there and let them walk all over me. I should have said 'This information is all the proof you need.'
So, where now? The court is 80 miles away (always is, despite me saying “It’s time it is nearer me.” to them). Do I look for a solicitor near me or near the court? Do I just look for a family solicitor? How much do they cost?
However, 2 years ago I started my own business. It was a huge struggle and I made next to nothing in income, however my wife works so this was just about bearable financially. However, as a result I paid a lower amount to the CSA during that time.
Unfortunately my ex decided I was probably earning much more than I said and so, without any evidence to support this, took to me to court as part of the CSA process. Cutting a long story short, they asked me to provide a mass of personal financial information to show I was telling the truth. I provided most of it (I didn’t mind the court seeing my finances but was pissed off at them having to show my ex!) but was missing one or two minor bits of info that I simply didn't have. The court thus ruled against me, calculating that I owe something like 104 weeks at £235 + 15%!!!
Talking to a friend yesterday he said 'You've gone to court without a defence and so they have just ganged up on you.' He's right and I wish I'd realised that before now and so will appeal this decision. I didn’t stand up for myself and didn’t have anyone to do it for me. I should have taken a ‘You say I am lying, prove it’ stance rather than sit there and let them walk all over me. I should have said 'This information is all the proof you need.'
So, where now? The court is 80 miles away (always is, despite me saying “It’s time it is nearer me.” to them). Do I look for a solicitor near me or near the court? Do I just look for a family solicitor? How much do they cost?
PurpleMoonlight said:
Who made the application to court exactly, your ex or the CSA?
Have you obtained the missing evidence by now and does it mean that the original judgement is flawed?
My ex. Its the appeal process part of the CSA.Have you obtained the missing evidence by now and does it mean that the original judgement is flawed?
TBH it was only small things but IMO they asked me for far too much info, incorrectly referred to some items of documentation, etc. There was clearly enough info there, along with my history, to see that I was not lying (and never would regarding my children). IMO they had/have enough info, they thought differently (bear in mnd there was the equivlant of a folder full of documentation).
PurpleMoonlight said:
I wasn't aware that the PWC could instigate court action on behalf of the CSA. Seems very strange.
Are you stating the Court ordered a payment yet the appeal of that Order is direct to the CSA?
You are not making yourself clear I'm afraid.
The CSA has standard 'terms' but either parent can contest them and on occasion this means they go to Court. Essentially the CSA themselves have limited resources and so use the Courts for disputes where one parent disbelieves what the other has told the CSA. Sometimes this is a good thing (when one parent is clearly being dishonest) but other times it is not a good thing and can, as with any Court decision, mean an unjust outcome.Are you stating the Court ordered a payment yet the appeal of that Order is direct to the CSA?
You are not making yourself clear I'm afraid.
I assume, from the OP, that this is what has happened. I am not sure whether the OP appeals to the Court or the CSA though. My own, limited experience of Courts is that 'He(or she) with the most resources (legal support)' usually wins. It sounds here as if the OP didn't have the most/any unfortunately
I have nothing to add to the OP's question, but I will say that as a formerly-divorced father of 2 who infallibly paid maintenance until both of them either left full-time employment or came to live with me, the CSA is an utterly execrable institution, and one in which I really fail to understand how anyone can actually work and accept remuneration and still sleep at night.
I used to work with a bloke who was divorced...
Initially they agreed maintenance between the two of them, which just so happened to be more than the CSA would have required him to pay. However periodically his ex would start f
king around with access so he'd stop the money. At which point she'd start playing ball again and the money would restart. However one day she decided to go to the CSA to stop him doing this. The CSA worked out a number, which was less than he'd been paying, and then said that as they'd had no record of previous payments he also owed £X. The situation was explained to them and eventually they got it. Except come payday they'd taken a massive chunk out of his wage. So he gets in touch again. "That's to pay for the moeny owed before your ex wife got us involved". It took several months for them to see sense. Thankfully he had the means to manage while they were taking money they shoudn't have been.
Oh and his ex pretty much stopped allowing him access from that point as well.
Initially they agreed maintenance between the two of them, which just so happened to be more than the CSA would have required him to pay. However periodically his ex would start f
king around with access so he'd stop the money. At which point she'd start playing ball again and the money would restart. However one day she decided to go to the CSA to stop him doing this. The CSA worked out a number, which was less than he'd been paying, and then said that as they'd had no record of previous payments he also owed £X. The situation was explained to them and eventually they got it. Except come payday they'd taken a massive chunk out of his wage. So he gets in touch again. "That's to pay for the moeny owed before your ex wife got us involved". It took several months for them to see sense. Thankfully he had the means to manage while they were taking money they shoudn't have been. Oh and his ex pretty much stopped allowing him access from that point as well.
Frimley111R said:
The CSA has standard 'terms' but either parent can contest them and on occasion this means they go to Court. Essentially the CSA themselves have limited resources and so use the Courts for disputes where one parent disbelieves what the other has told the CSA. Sometimes this is a good thing (when one parent is clearly being dishonest) but other times it is not a good thing and can, as with any Court decision, mean an unjust outcome.
I assume, from the OP, that this is what has happened. I am not sure whether the OP appeals to the Court or the CSA though. My own, limited experience of Courts is that 'He(or she) with the most resources (legal support)' usually wins. It sounds here as if the OP didn't have the most/any unfortunately
The CSA has a wide range of powers and they certainly use the courts to enforce payment of CM, however I have never heard of a PWC applying to court because they do not believe the earnings being declared. Of course, that appears to be exactly what happened here. I'm curious whether or not the CSA accepted the OP's earnings declarations.I assume, from the OP, that this is what has happened. I am not sure whether the OP appeals to the Court or the CSA though. My own, limited experience of Courts is that 'He(or she) with the most resources (legal support)' usually wins. It sounds here as if the OP didn't have the most/any unfortunately
I thought the CSA had a tribunal system to sort out disputes where one party does not agree with the CSA's action. They did 10 years ago when I was almost dragged to one as the ex didn't believe my declared earnings but the CSA did.
CAPP0 said:
the CSA is an utterly execrable institution, and one in which I really fail to understand how anyone can actually work and accept remuneration and still sleep at night.
Why? Who do you think should pay for kids where the errant father has buggered off and is refusing to pay for their upbringing? Not that this appears the case with either you or the OP.berlintaxi said:
CAPP0 said:
the CSA is an utterly execrable institution, and one in which I really fail to understand how anyone can actually work and accept remuneration and still sleep at night.
Why? Who do you think should pay for kids where the errant father has buggered off and is refusing to pay for their upbringing? Not that this appears the case with either you or the OP.Nothing to add of any value other than my heartfelt support for Fathers like the OP who do their best and pay their dues and then get screwed.
I know a number of expat Dads who've just fked off abroad and left their wife and kids in the cold. Not a good way to behave but given the tales of woe I sometimes read I guess desperate situations give rise to desperate measures.
I know a number of expat Dads who've just f
ked off abroad and left their wife and kids in the cold. Not a good way to behave but given the tales of woe I sometimes read I guess desperate situations give rise to desperate measures.Curiously enough, I'm on the flipside of this - I'm living with the PWC, and her ex is refusing to pay CM, but there is no issue with access - One midweek night per week, every other weekend friday to monday, and half the holidays. He has about £5k unpaid from when he was working, and since he became a full time bum, he hasn't paid a penny, despite a significant divorce payout.
The CSA are taking him to court for the arrears, but as he is not working, but does have access over a certain umber of nights per year, he doesn't currently have to pay anything. Which is fair enough, except for the fact he is now working cash in hand, and hiding income somewhere. He is no longer on JSA, but still has a £700 a month private flat, frequent holidays and runs a 6 year old E-Class.
The CSA don't seem to question how is maintaining his currently lifestyle with no apparent means of income.
The CSA are taking him to court for the arrears, but as he is not working, but does have access over a certain umber of nights per year, he doesn't currently have to pay anything. Which is fair enough, except for the fact he is now working cash in hand, and hiding income somewhere. He is no longer on JSA, but still has a £700 a month private flat, frequent holidays and runs a 6 year old E-Class.
The CSA don't seem to question how is maintaining his currently lifestyle with no apparent means of income.
PurpleMoonlight said:
berlintaxi said:
Why? Who do you think should pay for kids where the errant father has buggered off and is refusing to pay for their upbringing? Not that this appears the case with either you or the OP.
You have obviously never had the pleasure of actually dealing with them ....I was dragged through the CSA system a few years ago by my ex and it was an experience I never want to repeat.
The automatic assumption was I was to blame for everything.
I did go along with all they asked and provided them with wage slips. I was still weekly back then, so it was my 5 last wage slips as requested.
It was week 50 of the tax year and you could see how much I had earned for the year. However for those 5 weeks I had done a ton of overtime due to business needs.
CSA based my 15% monthly payments on these 5 weeks of unnaturally high earnings then, also awarded backdated money based on this rate too, backdated money I wasn't even due to pay. I had always paid maintenance before.
I was treated like a proper scumbag when I'm a good dad, wasn't responsible for the break up, my ex was still bitter and had already paid a fortune maintenance.
Knowing other people's experiences, they is too often the automatic assumption the absent dad is always in the wrong and a liar.
Driver101 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
berlintaxi said:
Why? Who do you think should pay for kids where the errant father has buggered off and is refusing to pay for their upbringing? Not that this appears the case with either you or the OP.
You have obviously never had the pleasure of actually dealing with them ....I was dragged through the CSA system a few years ago by my ex and it was an experience I never want to repeat.
The automatic assumption was I was to blame for everything.
I did go along with all they asked and provided them with wage slips. I was still weekly back then, so it was my 5 last wage slips as requested.
It was week 50 of the tax year and you could see how much I had earned for the year. However for those 5 weeks I had done a ton of overtime due to business needs.
CSA based my 15% monthly payments on these 5 weeks of unnaturally high earnings then, also awarded backdated money based on this rate too, backdated money I wasn't even due to pay. I had always paid maintenance before.
I was treated like a proper scumbag when I'm a good dad, wasn't responsible for the break up, my ex was still bitter and had already paid a fortune maintenance.
Knowing other people's experiences, they is too often the automatic assumption the absent dad is always in the wrong and a liar.
CAPP0 said:
I have nothing to add to the OP's question, but I will say that as a formerly-divorced father of 2 who infallibly paid maintenance until both of them either left full-time employment or came to live with me, the CSA is an utterly execrable institution, and one in which I really fail to understand how anyone can actually work and accept remuneration and still sleep at night.
^^^ This at the same time they are mucking up things for the OP, they have steadfastly and totally failed to get my Sister's ex husband to pay a penny. Tools.berlintaxi said:
CAPP0 said:
the CSA is an utterly execrable institution, and one in which I really fail to understand how anyone can actually work and accept remuneration and still sleep at night.
Why? Who do you think should pay for kids where the errant father has buggered off and is refusing to pay for their upbringing? Not that this appears the case with either you or the OP.V8forweekends said:
berlintaxi said:
CAPP0 said:
the CSA is an utterly execrable institution, and one in which I really fail to understand how anyone can actually work and accept remuneration and still sleep at night.
Why? Who do you think should pay for kids where the errant father has buggered off and is refusing to pay for their upbringing? Not that this appears the case with either you or the OP.Despite all my correspondence with them being obviously geared towards trying to favour my ex wife, they have been surprisingly pleasant to deal with and have took nothing more than i owed.
That said, they tried to make my mother and stepfather pay a fortune for my two stepsisters. They hounded them for years and threatened court avtion. This was despite the fact that they did not see their vile mother (a drugged up thief, in and out of prison) and that they lived full time with my mum. For this i'll never trust CSA.
my wifes ex stopped paying any sort of maintenance when the youngest became 12 (older one was 14) she deliberately didn't go to the csa as he was self employed and she didn't want to cause friction between him and her and the kids due to the horror stories she'd heard about the csa.
the friction now between him and the kids is all his own doing.
the friction now between him and the kids is all his own doing.
V8forweekends said:
^^^ This at the same time they are mucking up things for the OP, they have steadfastly and totally failed to get my Sister's ex husband to pay a penny. Tools.
How? Unless he is not working they will get him surely? If he doesn't state how much he earns they will make up a big number and then charge him, even going direct to his bank account and taking (an admittedly nominal amount) from him there. They seem to me to be unstoppable. The only way I can see someone avoiding this is if they are effectively penniless.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff