Time to arm the Police?

[TheExcession]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4137875.stm

Scary stuff, youths shooting at unarmed Police Officers, this now provoking requests to fuly arm all Police officers.

Seems to me this whole situation will only get worse and this course of action inevitable - but would it make matters worse or could the pressence of armed officers get a bit more order back onto the streets?

Sad days.
best
Ex

[nonegreen]

Bad idea. Very rarely are police shot at in the UK so the best way to keep it that way is maintain the status quo. The contempt for authority (I mean the administration not the police) is so great now that it pervades the entire nation and crosses all class and financial boundaries. It is inevitable that the criminal fraternity will detect that most of society now has no respect for the law because it is being so badly applied. Making everyone a criminal may well be good for economic growth but it will inevitable result in the total breakdown of our fairly gun free state. Arm the police and everyone else will start to carry guns. The solution to the problem is to allow the electorate to elect the government they desire, not a load of silly lawyers and schoolteachers who hate cars and know nothing about real life. Then we will start to rebuild the respect for authority that is sadly lacking and we will no longer see schoolboys carrying guns. Any other aproach and we will end up like Gary Indiana. Anybody wanna buy an Ousi? My best guess is Blair and the housewives will make a mess of this one too.

[mojocvh]

TheExcession said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4137875.stm Scary stuff, youths shooting at unarmed Police Officers, this now provoking requests to fuly arm all Police officers. Seems to me this whole situation will only get worse and this course of action inevitable - but would it make matters worse or could the pressence of armed officers get a bit more order back onto the streets? Sad days. best Ex

any idea what sort of "gun"??

MoJo.

[silverback mike]

I don't think we should arm every police officer. In my opinion it would cause an increase in firearm related crime, which would spiral to a virtually uncontrollable level.

Teams of firearms units, and firearms trained personnel to tackle a particular incident are the way problems are dealt with now, and are effective.

However, with the increase firearms related incidents, something is going to have to change and where do we draw the line? The more firearms teams we have lessen the PC's on the beat who are unarmed, making them easy targets......scary times....

[Flat in Fifth]

Gazing into a crystal ball I predict that the two tier force being generated will see....

PC = armed
PCSO = unarmed.

Hope I'm wrong but....

[meldrewlives]

nonegreen said:

The solution to the problem is to allow the electorate to elect the government they desire

I entirely agree that the combination of scumbag politicians and "nanny knows best" central/local government is at the root of the growing public contempt but I don't see how you conclude that the problem is a constraint on the electorate.

Regrettably Tony B Liar and his henchmen won an election. I hope and pray they don't get in a third time but I'm not holding my breath.

As far as guns are concerned I wish I knew what would be for the best. It is appalling that unarmed police have to confront armed criminals. Maybe if we had the death penalty for all cases where there is absolutely no doubt of guilt that would make the criminals think twice?

[bobfrance]

silverback mike said:

However, with the increase firearms related incidents, something is going to have to change and where do we draw the line? The more firearms teams we have lessen the PC's on the beat who are unarmed, making them easy targets......scary times....

So the banning of all guns a few years ago didn't work then?

Criminals - you just can't trust 'em!

[parrot of doom]

I don't want to see armed officers on the streets. What next? Buy a gun to defend yourself in your own home?

USA here we come.

[silverback mike]

parrot of doom said:

I don't want to see armed officers on the streets. What next? Buy a gun to defend yourself in your own home? USA here we come.

Parrot, that is the general consensus of opinion.
Firearms are out there, but still to some degree, stemmed as we don't have a gun culture (yet).

I don't see all PC'S being armed, and PCSO's not being armed. Not for the dim and distant future anyway.

[nonegreen]

meldrewlives said:

nonegreen said: The solution to the problem is to allow the electorate to elect the government they desire I entirely agree that the combination of scumbag politicians and "nanny knows best" central/local government is at the root of the growing public contempt but I don't see how you conclude that the problem is a constraint on the electorate. Regrettably Tony B Liar and his henchmen won an election. I hope and pray they don't get in a third time but I'm not holding my breath. As far as guns are concerned I wish I knew what would be for the best. It is appalling that unarmed police have to confront armed criminals. Maybe if we had the death penalty for all cases where there is absolutely no doubt of guilt that would make the criminals think twice?

Indeed it is a difficult connundrom. The point I am trying to make about the electorate and support for authority is this. I will try to illustrate it with an example.

When the slag heap at Aberfan collapsed and killed all the kids in the community, the focus of the community and the anger was on the Colliery. The result was they paid up, cleaned up and learned a valuable lesson. They were organised criminals in a way, but they could only operate with the permission of the community. Once that permission was taken away they had to act. We have organised criminals who are allowed to get away with lots of activity because in return they keep the peace for the community. The police turn a blind eye sometimes in return for control of peace on the streets. The boundaries of this game creep inevitably away from a set of values the people hold dear because of liberal elitism. If the drug gangs in Moss side shoot each other that really has nothing to do with the non participants. If they start destroying that community the community will take away their license in a very rapid and destructive way. Thus the community now has so little respect for conventional authority that it pasively allows children to confront the symbol of authority ie the police. The only solution is to rebuild the authority so it is inclusive. In some respects if it kills liberal elitism it is perhaps just an inevitable road we must travel.

Hope that explains rather than confuses.

[TheExcession]

Intersting points by all above.

I'm left wondering however just how long it will be until regular beat officers are at the point where they are not prepared to go into certain areas unarmed? How many incidents like this will it take?

Like most people I feel the British Police force are to be praised for the uniqueness of the fact that they routinely patrol without firearms.

I guess in my mind I'd like to see a real deterrant to the carrying of guns. Something along the lines of 'Well Sir, we just found you carrying this gun so if you'd just stand there for a moment whilst I use it to shoot you in the knoee caps. Sorry what? It smarts a bit? Ahh yes don't worry we'll call an ambulance for you in a moment. Umm it seems like all the ambulances are a bit busy at the moment dealing with a bad RTC down the road, looks like you're in for a bit of a wait sonny... but there's a bus stop over there if you need a ride to hospital'.

What else to do? If it's not guns it's knives. Found out recently that Mrs Ex's eldest son (aged 17 and I'm not his Dad btw), was pulled in possesion of a knife. He's also had a gun pulled on him before when he tried to stop some blokes robbing the wallet from his friend.

All scary shit, certainly put the fear of bejeesus up him, but living in Tottenham this seems to be a day to day occurance for many people.

So, what to do? If the prisons are full of speeding motorists where do you put the people carrying these types of weopons. Undoubtedly there is a culture of kids growing up for whom this is normal and acceptable behaviour. It's bling init?

And whilst it is in these kid's own interest to keep as far away from the Police as possible, sorting out their own quarrels in their own particular way, eventually these kids will cross paths with Police officers who have no real deterrant or defense.

Well, I'm Kinda glad to be out of the whole shabang if the truth be known.

To all of you officers facing this shit I really wonder how you cope, and more, how do your family/friends cope knowing that you are out and potentially having to deal with this? I take my hat off to you - with current government policy on crime I can only see this getting worse.

best
Ex