Private estate parking problems.
Discussion
Wonder if anyone has some knowledge on this one?
Live on a private estate with a private access road.
We have a residents committee that is run by a retired busy body who just loves making up problems to deal with.
His latest is parking. He has managed to convince the management company that there is a horrendous parking problem on the estate - there isn't, there is a problem on his mews with one house that has 4 cars and 2 spaces. It drives him bats
t.
He has, at the last residents meeting had a resolution passed to employ a private parking enforcement outfit.
He wants to ticket all cars not displaying one of his permits, any car parked outside the parking bays and anyone in the wrong bay.
I own the estate road. And sometimes I have to park on it to load/unload and more importantly as my drive has to be left empty on occasion as it has the access to the drain pumping station.
There is a TPS in place that says not to park on the access road - a bridge leading to the estate, and not to cause obstruction. He has decided the access road includes the road inside the estate - ie my bit.
Where does he stand on this? What do I need to do to stop this? Parking on my part of the road has a benefit to both me and the neighbours at my end - it slows down the other residents and stops then playing Colin McCrae on the gravel past my front door.
Live on a private estate with a private access road.
We have a residents committee that is run by a retired busy body who just loves making up problems to deal with.
His latest is parking. He has managed to convince the management company that there is a horrendous parking problem on the estate - there isn't, there is a problem on his mews with one house that has 4 cars and 2 spaces. It drives him bats
t. He has, at the last residents meeting had a resolution passed to employ a private parking enforcement outfit.
He wants to ticket all cars not displaying one of his permits, any car parked outside the parking bays and anyone in the wrong bay.
I own the estate road. And sometimes I have to park on it to load/unload and more importantly as my drive has to be left empty on occasion as it has the access to the drain pumping station.
There is a TPS in place that says not to park on the access road - a bridge leading to the estate, and not to cause obstruction. He has decided the access road includes the road inside the estate - ie my bit.
Where does he stand on this? What do I need to do to stop this? Parking on my part of the road has a benefit to both me and the neighbours at my end - it slows down the other residents and stops then playing Colin McCrae on the gravel past my front door.
Yep, in my deeds.
Each house gets a bit of the road so it becomes shared maintenance.
I get the only bit that is parkable on - in fact the developers sold it to me as parking space for my house. The other houses own bits of the road I front of their drives/parking bays, my garage is set so that the road is along the side of my house and length of the garden with the garage seperate and in front of the house. So there is parking for 4 cars along my 'but' of roadway. One is a marked space for my house and three against the kerb.
If a car is parked there, there is no obstruction. I parked a removal van there when we moved in and happily drove a transit in and out past it. The old git at the end struggles to drive a panda through if a car is parked there, in fact last time I saw him pissing about I measured the gap left by the parked car. Just under 10'.
Each house gets a bit of the road so it becomes shared maintenance.
I get the only bit that is parkable on - in fact the developers sold it to me as parking space for my house. The other houses own bits of the road I front of their drives/parking bays, my garage is set so that the road is along the side of my house and length of the garden with the garage seperate and in front of the house. So there is parking for 4 cars along my 'but' of roadway. One is a marked space for my house and three against the kerb.
If a car is parked there, there is no obstruction. I parked a removal van there when we moved in and happily drove a transit in and out past it. The old git at the end struggles to drive a panda through if a car is parked there, in fact last time I saw him pissing about I measured the gap left by the parked car. Just under 10'.
davemac250 said:
Yep, in my deeds.
Each house gets a bit of the road so it becomes shared maintenance.
I get the only bit that is parkable on - in fact the developers sold it to me as parking space for my house. The other houses own bits of the road I front of their drives/parking bays, my garage is set so that the road is along the side of my house and length of the garden with the garage seperate and in front of the house. So there is parking for 4 cars along my 'but' of roadway. One is a marked space for my house and three against the kerb.
If a car is parked there, there is no obstruction. I parked a removal van there when we moved in and happily drove a transit in and out past it. The old git at the end struggles to drive a panda through if a car is parked there, in fact last time I saw him pissing about I measured the gap left by the parked car. Just under 10'.
If the road belongs to various people (and especially your bit which belongs to you as per your deeds Each house gets a bit of the road so it becomes shared maintenance.
I get the only bit that is parkable on - in fact the developers sold it to me as parking space for my house. The other houses own bits of the road I front of their drives/parking bays, my garage is set so that the road is along the side of my house and length of the garden with the garage seperate and in front of the house. So there is parking for 4 cars along my 'but' of roadway. One is a marked space for my house and three against the kerb.
If a car is parked there, there is no obstruction. I parked a removal van there when we moved in and happily drove a transit in and out past it. The old git at the end struggles to drive a panda through if a car is parked there, in fact last time I saw him pissing about I measured the gap left by the parked car. Just under 10'.
), then on receipt of a parking ticket you'll be appealing and asking for sight of the contract they have with the landholder (that's you or the other property owners) - hint: they won't (don't) have one (did you or they ever sign one??) .So that's your first appeal point.
Second appeal point is that the "private parking company" (PPC)'s charge isn't a Genuine Pre Estimate Of Loss (the "GPEOL" argument) arising from the alleged parking infringement - this is nil, as the vehicle was parked on the landholder's own land (or possibly a neighbour's - your - land, by agreement
) and you own the land therefore the cost of parking was nil (not £60 rising to £100 or whatever the PPC asks ).Third point is that the management company don't have a right to issue permits for landholders to park on their own land (your lease might need checking on this!).
Other points are available, such as a lack of signage or poorly lit signage at night, also the wording of the signs indicating parking restrictions (what do you mean by "there are no signs"??
you geddit?? ).But don't reply to tickets on the windscreen, wait for the "notice to keeper" which should arrive between 28 days and 56 days after the alleged parking infringement. If the timing here is wrong, that's another appeal point.
You need to make a 'soft' appeal to the PPC then a harder appeal to POPLA or IPS (whichever "independent appeal system" the PPC use - what is the name of the PPC?). IPS turn down appeals 'regardless' whereas a POPLA appeal on the grounds of GPEOL will win every time... A loss at IPS will still win at court, should it come to pass (see PePiPoo as above and ask for advice)
.PePiPoo's "private parking" forum will tell ALL, but I've covered most of it here
.This needs a kick in the 'nads - as does ye olde chappie who introduced this madness... But give it time. You could always get everyone to park "illegally" (note the quote marks
) on a weekly/monthly rota then all appeal to POPLA for each and every 'ticket' thus costing the PPC literally thousands (£27 + VAT per individual appeal) in very short order... Not that I would recomment this, oh
!! 
Play the long game.
The parking company are engaged. Most of the residents get a ticket (forgot to put my permit in/fell on the floor/in the other car. Their guests get ticketed. The plumber has one too.
Residents unite in fury. Busybody gets voted off committee. Life returns to normal,
regards,
Jet
The parking company are engaged. Most of the residents get a ticket (forgot to put my permit in/fell on the floor/in the other car. Their guests get ticketed. The plumber has one too.
Residents unite in fury. Busybody gets voted off committee. Life returns to normal,
regards,
Jet
numtumfutunch said:
Roo said:
You own the road? Stated in your deeds?
If it was me I'd be inclined to ignore him and tell him to fk off.
This but in addition Id initiate a coup to depose him, install myself as Fuhrer and then make his life a misery with petty rulesIf it was me I'd be inclined to ignore him and tell him to f
k off.Seriously
I'll get this in now, have you tried the frozen sausage approach?
Maybe your facial hair isn't threatening enough!
As you own the land, could you not just tell any parking enforcement person that they are trespassing? (I have no legal training, BV will probably debunk me, which is fine, just a suggestion old bean!)
Or you could, I dunno, try talking to him?
Maybe your facial hair isn't threatening enough!
As you own the land, could you not just tell any parking enforcement person that they are trespassing? (I have no legal training, BV will probably debunk me, which is fine, just a suggestion old bean!)
Or you could, I dunno, try talking to him?
Fundamental question - this "road". Is it a road (privately maintained) or is it a private access. The first one still has a public right of access, the second one doesn't.
If it's a shared private access (no public access) then the discussion about "private land" etc is correct.
If there is no restriction on public access, then the only difference between a "private road" and a "public road" is who maintains it, NOT who can use it. Individual titles may include the area of the road - doesn't matter, if there is a public right of passage then the landowner cannot control what happens on "his" bit of road.
If it's a "privately-maintained road" then only the local highway authority can control parking on it - they might not maintain it but they are still the relevant "traffic authority" for all "roads" in their area under the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. Any parking restrictions etc need the same regulations as a "public road" - i.e. a Traffic Regulation Order, markings and signs in accordance with Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, etc, and the same enforcement regime - i.e. police or the council's civil enforcement.
Sticking up notices, issuing "invoices" and threatening clamping / towing etc on a privately-maintained road (which is open to the public) is a no-no.
It can be hard to tell if a particular "way" is a "road" or an "access" The presence of street lights, for example, would suggest it's a road, not an access.
First check therefore - if it's a road, then he can FRO with his threats of signs and notices etc. There is sod all he can do.
If it's a shared private access (no public access) then the discussion about "private land" etc is correct.
If there is no restriction on public access, then the only difference between a "private road" and a "public road" is who maintains it, NOT who can use it. Individual titles may include the area of the road - doesn't matter, if there is a public right of passage then the landowner cannot control what happens on "his" bit of road.
If it's a "privately-maintained road" then only the local highway authority can control parking on it - they might not maintain it but they are still the relevant "traffic authority" for all "roads" in their area under the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. Any parking restrictions etc need the same regulations as a "public road" - i.e. a Traffic Regulation Order, markings and signs in accordance with Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, etc, and the same enforcement regime - i.e. police or the council's civil enforcement.
Sticking up notices, issuing "invoices" and threatening clamping / towing etc on a privately-maintained road (which is open to the public) is a no-no.
It can be hard to tell if a particular "way" is a "road" or an "access" The presence of street lights, for example, would suggest it's a road, not an access.
First check therefore - if it's a road, then he can FRO with his threats of signs and notices etc. There is sod all he can do.
Breadvan72 said:
Ignore all that crap above about appealing. No one can charge you for parking on your own land.
Agreed, but I would like to see the deeds to check if there is/the wording and construction of any restrictive covenant not to park upon/obstruct. Obviously a different legal point to the one in play with the parking enforcement contractors but no point in winning the battle and going on to lose the war.IME the chair of these things is usually Col. H. Jones (rtd.), or similar. They can be a pain in the arse in some respects, and some go beyond their remit, but as a rule having one of these is better than a lame duck who does beggar all and lets the resi's do as they will which is all well and good until someone starts to extract the yellow stuff.
tvrgit said:
Fundamental question - this "road". Is it a road (privately maintained) or is it a private access. The first one still has a public right of access, the second one doesn't.
If it's a shared private access (no public access) then the discussion about "private land" etc is correct.
If there is no restriction on public access, then the only difference between a "private road" and a "public road" is who maintains it, NOT who can use it. Individual titles may include the area of the road - doesn't matter, if there is a public right of passage then the landowner cannot control what happens on "his" bit of road.
If it's a "privately-maintained road" then only the local highway authority can control parking on it - they might not maintain it but they are still the relevant "traffic authority" for all "roads" in their area under the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. Any parking restrictions etc need the same regulations as a "public road" - i.e. a Traffic Regulation Order, markings and signs in accordance with Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, etc, and the same enforcement regime - i.e. police or the council's civil enforcement.
Sticking up notices, issuing "invoices" and threatening clamping / towing etc on a privately-maintained road (which is open to the public) is a no-no.
It can be hard to tell if a particular "way" is a "road" or an "access" The presence of street lights, for example, would suggest it's a road, not an access.
First check therefore - if it's a road, then he can FRO with his threats of signs and notices etc. There is sod all he can do.
I knew this would get complicated!!If it's a shared private access (no public access) then the discussion about "private land" etc is correct.
If there is no restriction on public access, then the only difference between a "private road" and a "public road" is who maintains it, NOT who can use it. Individual titles may include the area of the road - doesn't matter, if there is a public right of passage then the landowner cannot control what happens on "his" bit of road.
If it's a "privately-maintained road" then only the local highway authority can control parking on it - they might not maintain it but they are still the relevant "traffic authority" for all "roads" in their area under the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. Any parking restrictions etc need the same regulations as a "public road" - i.e. a Traffic Regulation Order, markings and signs in accordance with Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, etc, and the same enforcement regime - i.e. police or the council's civil enforcement.
Sticking up notices, issuing "invoices" and threatening clamping / towing etc on a privately-maintained road (which is open to the public) is a no-no.
It can be hard to tell if a particular "way" is a "road" or an "access" The presence of street lights, for example, would suggest it's a road, not an access.
First check therefore - if it's a road, then he can FRO with his threats of signs and notices etc. There is sod all he can do.
Right, it's signed as private property, it is listed as private access but there is a public right of way through the estate as the was a footpath and the developers had to put pedestrian gates at either end of the estate - these do not lead to the 'road'.
There are no street lights. Ret Consular Officer OBE is spending the money we had asked to be used from the estate funds on his private parking war.
Tell a lie there, there is one light right where he parks that was fitted a couple of months back....
BV - my instinct is with you on the, it's my land get stuffed.
There is a TP1 in place, it's badly worded and ambiguous. It doesn't include parking permits, precludes parking on the access road and causing an obstruction.
When all residents were sold their houses all were told parking was allowed as long as no obstruction was caused. It's not, unless you can't drive.
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