POPLA appeal rejected
Discussion
So to cut a very long story short we own a flat park in the car park, had a parking fine for not displaying the correct permit they apparently issued new ones. We didn't pay it and appealed and have just had the decision our appeal was rejected and were to pay the £100 fine within 14 days.
So what next? Pay up or can we appeal again?
The whole thing is ridiculous we own the damn flat it's our right to park there!
So what next? Pay up or can we appeal again?
The whole thing is ridiculous we own the damn flat it's our right to park there!
98elise said:
What money have they lost? If nothing then tell then to go f
k themselves, and you will see them in court.
PS its a bill, not a fine. they have no right to fine you.
Could you be any less helpful?k themselves, and you will see them in court.PS its a bill, not a fine. they have no right to fine you.
OP - check the MSE or Pepipoo forums...they have people who know actually what they're talking about.
They have lost nothing it's private parking for the flats all well and good them stopping joe public from parking there but old or new permit they shouldn't be charging us or our visitors.
Good point about contacting the lease holder that may be worth a punt.
The wife is all for paying it as she doesn't want the hassle if it was my fine I'd take it all the way.
Good point about contacting the lease holder that may be worth a punt.
The wife is all for paying it as she doesn't want the hassle if it was my fine I'd take it all the way.
nikaiyo2 said:
You say POPLA appeal has been rejected, on what grounds did you appeal? They normally give a reason as to why the appeal was lost, what was that reason?
Have you actually appealed to POPLA, or just to the Parking co, who may try to imply that you have already appealed to POPLA?
Definitely appealed to the correct people on the grounds that we were displaying our permit. Have you actually appealed to POPLA, or just to the Parking co, who may try to imply that you have already appealed to POPLA?
Rejected because it was the wrong permit they had issued new ones a couple if weeks earlier and we hadn't realised.
BoRED S2upid said:
Definitely appealed to the correct people on the grounds that we were displaying our permit.
Rejected because it was the wrong permit they had issued new ones a couple if weeks earlier and we hadn't realised.
Did you get the 10 digit number and use the correct forms? I labour this point because one or 2 of the less honest parking companies have been trying to dress their internal appeal up as coming from POPLA. Rejected because it was the wrong permit they had issued new ones a couple if weeks earlier and we hadn't realised.
If so get over to Pepipoo you should be able to have the appeal reviewed by a lead assessor (or whatever they are called.) In addition to you point about the permit there are many other issues you might be able to raise, such as Genuine Pre Esitmate of Loss, as that is always a winner.
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
98elise said:
What money have they lost? If nothing then tell then to go fk themselves, and you will see them in court.
PS its a bill, not a fine. they have no right to fine you.
Could you be any less helpful?k themselves, and you will see them in court.PS its a bill, not a fine. they have no right to fine you.
OP - check the MSE or Pepipoo forums...they have people who know actually what they're talking about.
Who was the parking company involved? Some are very litigious, but the majority will just send a series of official sounding but effectively toothless debt collection letters.
I've recently been getting very involved in PPC challenges, currently had 32 POPLA appeals upheld, 1 rejected (IPC so kangaroo court anyway), one court case pending, and two court cases "won" (first was withdrawn before the day, the second was withdrawn at the request of the bench).
(I'm not a habitually bad or inconsiderate parker - I work in fleet management)
I've recently been getting very involved in PPC challenges, currently had 32 POPLA appeals upheld, 1 rejected (IPC so kangaroo court anyway), one court case pending, and two court cases "won" (first was withdrawn before the day, the second was withdrawn at the request of the bench).
(I'm not a habitually bad or inconsiderate parker - I work in fleet management)
I am just about to embark on an appeal process, firstly to the parking company, which I'm sure will fail, and then to POPLA, for exactly the same scenario you were ticketed for. If it helps, here is the letter I am sending. I've done a bit of research to see what the best approach is. It picks up on the two points Breadvan raised above so hopefully it is along the right lines.
Would welcome any comments on my wording, and it may help OP as well if you can make a second appeal to POPLA.
[EXTRACT]
Firstly, please can you provide evidence that you have authority from the landowner to issue parking charge notices for the relevant parking space.
Secondly, upon investigation, I am advised that in relation to the alleged breach of parking in a permit area without displaying a valid permit, the vehicle concerned was parked with the express permission of the person who has the legal title to the parking space concerned. No loss has been suffered by the person who has the legal title to the parking space concerned.
Therefore, the vehicle was parked with the full permission necessary to occupy the space, and, on its own, the act of failing to display the permit (the alleged breach) did not lead to any loss being suffered by you (or any client that you may be acting on behalf of), compared to the vehicle being parked and displaying a permit.
Your signage at the location states “Failure to comply with the following [terms] at any time will result in a £100 Parking Charge (reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days) being issued to the vehicle’s driver”. This wording indicates that the charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract. Accordingly the charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Such costs/losses can only include losses which you (or your client) would reasonably expect to incur as a result of the alleged breach i.e. allegedly failing to display a permit.
Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, for which the burden of proof rests with yourself, the £100 payment that you are seeking is an unenforceable penalty, and is not a genuine pre-estimate of your (or your client’s) losses, as no direct initial loss will have been incurred solely arising from the failure to display a permit, which is the breach you are alleging.
I therefore would request that the Parking Charge is cancelled and you notify me in writing confirming cancellation.
[END EXTRACT]
Would welcome any comments on my wording, and it may help OP as well if you can make a second appeal to POPLA.
[EXTRACT]
Firstly, please can you provide evidence that you have authority from the landowner to issue parking charge notices for the relevant parking space.
Secondly, upon investigation, I am advised that in relation to the alleged breach of parking in a permit area without displaying a valid permit, the vehicle concerned was parked with the express permission of the person who has the legal title to the parking space concerned. No loss has been suffered by the person who has the legal title to the parking space concerned.
Therefore, the vehicle was parked with the full permission necessary to occupy the space, and, on its own, the act of failing to display the permit (the alleged breach) did not lead to any loss being suffered by you (or any client that you may be acting on behalf of), compared to the vehicle being parked and displaying a permit.
Your signage at the location states “Failure to comply with the following [terms] at any time will result in a £100 Parking Charge (reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days) being issued to the vehicle’s driver”. This wording indicates that the charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract. Accordingly the charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Such costs/losses can only include losses which you (or your client) would reasonably expect to incur as a result of the alleged breach i.e. allegedly failing to display a permit.
Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, for which the burden of proof rests with yourself, the £100 payment that you are seeking is an unenforceable penalty, and is not a genuine pre-estimate of your (or your client’s) losses, as no direct initial loss will have been incurred solely arising from the failure to display a permit, which is the breach you are alleging.
I therefore would request that the Parking Charge is cancelled and you notify me in writing confirming cancellation.
[END EXTRACT]
BoRED S2upid said:
nikaiyo2 said:
You say POPLA appeal has been rejected, on what grounds did you appeal? They normally give a reason as to why the appeal was lost, what was that reason?
Have you actually appealed to POPLA, or just to the Parking co, who may try to imply that you have already appealed to POPLA?
Definitely appealed to the correct people on the grounds that we were displaying our permit. Have you actually appealed to POPLA, or just to the Parking co, who may try to imply that you have already appealed to POPLA?
Rejected because it was the wrong permit they had issued new ones a couple if weeks earlier and we hadn't realised.
This is important.
Assuming you failed to add the GPEOL stuff to your POPLA appeal, wait for the next step (small claims court) and you can try again here to get the court to use POPLA as a mediator with new grounds, otherwise ask to get it stayed until after Parking Eye vs Beavis is heard, and then hopefully it'll all have gone to pot by then...
Breadvan72 said:
My advice as a real lawyer instead of a pretendy one is to ignore POPLA and that all that made up bks, ignore peepipoo and similar deranged websites, and simply take the stance that the claimant has suffered no loss (in some cases there won't be a contract either).
You forgot to add:ks, ignore peepipoo and similar deranged websites, and simply take the stance that the claimant has suffered no loss (in some cases there won't be a contract either)....as any fule kno...
Proper advice at last.
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