Debt, is ignorance a defence?
Discussion
A utility company alleges I owe them £2.500. I dispute this but that is a different argument.
I acquired the house I am in now while living at another address. The company had what is now my old address as a contact. The house I bought was empty and bring refurbished. When I moved into the refurbished house I informed the utility company that I had moved. They had my new address and telephone number.
I have letters from the utility company to my new address.
An old neighbour brought round some of my post from my old house. Christmas cards etc. Also there, a bill from the utility company for £2,500.
It turns out there was a potential problem a year ago, (I dispute this) but they sent bills to my old address meaning a discrepancy of a couple of hundred pounds that could be easily sorted is now £2.500.
This would not have been a problem if they had contacted me at the right address or even phoned me.
If for the sake of argument this goes to court and I lose would their f
k up which made the situation worse stand in my favour. I have paid the agreed DD every month and was acting in good faith.
Again if it went to court, would the fact that that they did not tell me about a problem before it bevame serious strengthen my case?
I acquired the house I am in now while living at another address. The company had what is now my old address as a contact. The house I bought was empty and bring refurbished. When I moved into the refurbished house I informed the utility company that I had moved. They had my new address and telephone number.
I have letters from the utility company to my new address.
An old neighbour brought round some of my post from my old house. Christmas cards etc. Also there, a bill from the utility company for £2,500.
It turns out there was a potential problem a year ago, (I dispute this) but they sent bills to my old address meaning a discrepancy of a couple of hundred pounds that could be easily sorted is now £2.500.
This would not have been a problem if they had contacted me at the right address or even phoned me.
If for the sake of argument this goes to court and I lose would their f
k up which made the situation worse stand in my favour. I have paid the agreed DD every month and was acting in good faith.Again if it went to court, would the fact that that they did not tell me about a problem before it bevame serious strengthen my case?
I am not a lawyer, not even in the pub. But having said that:
The utility company would have a duty to mitigate their losses. An obvious way to do this would be to contact you at whatever current address you have given them with any bills or demands for payment. They did not do this, therefore they failed to properly mitigate their losses.
Assuming that you did inform the utility company of when you moved and gave them your current address (which it seems you did) they won't have much of a case for any additional fees or charges as these have been generated by their failure to properly update their records and to then contact you at your current address. Those losses were only incurred because they chased you for payment at an address they reasonably should have known was out of date.
I would suggest writing out a letter setting out the above (that you had moved, had updated your address with them and are therefore surprised and shocked to see that in spite of knowing you had moved they had continued to send demands for payment to an out of date address). I would also suggest that if you intend to dispute the original bill you should set out your reasons for doing so in this letter quite clearly or make an offer to settle for the original outstanding amount.
Making an offer to settle would work in your favour, as if the matter went to court, they may only be awarded the amount owed on the original bill and not the additional fees and charges (due to their failure to mitigate) and it could mean that even if you lost the claim you might not be held liable for their costs.
The utility company would have a duty to mitigate their losses. An obvious way to do this would be to contact you at whatever current address you have given them with any bills or demands for payment. They did not do this, therefore they failed to properly mitigate their losses.
Assuming that you did inform the utility company of when you moved and gave them your current address (which it seems you did) they won't have much of a case for any additional fees or charges as these have been generated by their failure to properly update their records and to then contact you at your current address. Those losses were only incurred because they chased you for payment at an address they reasonably should have known was out of date.
I would suggest writing out a letter setting out the above (that you had moved, had updated your address with them and are therefore surprised and shocked to see that in spite of knowing you had moved they had continued to send demands for payment to an out of date address). I would also suggest that if you intend to dispute the original bill you should set out your reasons for doing so in this letter quite clearly or make an offer to settle for the original outstanding amount.
Making an offer to settle would work in your favour, as if the matter went to court, they may only be awarded the amount owed on the original bill and not the additional fees and charges (due to their failure to mitigate) and it could mean that even if you lost the claim you might not be held liable for their costs.
I don't see the fact that they at one time wrote to the wrong address will affect any County Court claim they make now because they are now corresponding with you at the correct address and presumably you will be served at the correct address.
So.
How gas a claimed debt of £200 become £2500.
On what basis do you dispute the £200.
So.
How gas a claimed debt of £200 become £2500.
On what basis do you dispute the £200.
They are not Contacting me at the correct address. I have only learnt of the problem because a neighbour who lives near my od address hand delivered the bill, along with some Christmas cards sent to my old address. I got these yesterday.
The company has my new address. They were given it and have corresponded with me at the new address in relation to other matters in the account. Despite this, they have been sending bills to the old address. Therfore the alleged debt has increased withiut my knowing and being able to deal with it - either dispute it or pay it. Resolving an issue over a couple of hundred pounds is a lot different to a couple of thousand.
I dispute the debt in the basis that I have not used the energy they claim. The debt is based on an estimate and I believe is contrary to meter readings. If I had been aware of this earlier I could have had it out with them and this matter would not be where we are now.
So I they claim I owe them money. They have my current address, they have a telephone number for me, yet they choose to contact me at an old address and to hike a monthly payment up from £40 a month to £400. Had they contacted me earlier, whatever the outcome of our disagreement, this situation would not be as bad as it is.
If my post had not been brought round by an old neighbour, I would know nothing of this. That would be until my bank started bouncing payments. Luckily there was a little fat in the system and my account which is just used for household bills could stand the hit.
The company has my new address. They were given it and have corresponded with me at the new address in relation to other matters in the account. Despite this, they have been sending bills to the old address. Therfore the alleged debt has increased withiut my knowing and being able to deal with it - either dispute it or pay it. Resolving an issue over a couple of hundred pounds is a lot different to a couple of thousand.
I dispute the debt in the basis that I have not used the energy they claim. The debt is based on an estimate and I believe is contrary to meter readings. If I had been aware of this earlier I could have had it out with them and this matter would not be where we are now.
So I they claim I owe them money. They have my current address, they have a telephone number for me, yet they choose to contact me at an old address and to hike a monthly payment up from £40 a month to £400. Had they contacted me earlier, whatever the outcome of our disagreement, this situation would not be as bad as it is.
If my post had not been brought round by an old neighbour, I would know nothing of this. That would be until my bank started bouncing payments. Luckily there was a little fat in the system and my account which is just used for household bills could stand the hit.
Edited by wildcat45 on Sunday 15th February 06:53
Would a court not ask them what reasonable steps they took to contact me earlier? Did you contact him at the new address?.Yes. Was it in connection with this debt? No. Did you have a telephone number for him? Yes. Did you call him? No. Did you send him bills to the new address? No. Where did you send the bills? To his old address. But you had his new address? Yes.
When you say you gave them your new address, did you give them this in connection to the property with the debt or a different property? Utility companies generally orientate their data around a property or meter point and less around a member of the public.
Was there a period of time when you were liable for the services but didn't receive any bills and just ignored this? I've nearly fallen for this trap on a rental property which during a month when it was empty I was liable.
Was there a period of time when you were liable for the services but didn't receive any bills and just ignored this? I've nearly fallen for this trap on a rental property which during a month when it was empty I was liable.
The address is largely irrelevant. If you had a contract and consumed the energy you will owe the money. If the charge is inaccurate, based on estimates this will be adjusted.
From the utility company's point of view they generally default to the supply address as it does not move and the consumer has to be there.
From the utility company's point of view they generally default to the supply address as it does not move and the consumer has to be there.
Fats25 said:
OP - are your accounts linked in anyway?
If not, how does utility company know you are the same person with 2 separate addresses, rather than 2 x people with same name, living at different addresses?
I have one account. I contacted them to update my details on that one account. They have contacted me at my new address in connection with this account but for some reason they bill me at the old address for this account. The account numbers are the same on correspondence to both addresses.If not, how does utility company know you are the same person with 2 separate addresses, rather than 2 x people with same name, living at different addresses?
I am pretty easy to find. I have an unusual surname spelt in an usual way. I am in the electoral roll for my new address and have been for 2 years, my home address comes up on director check sites, a Google tells you more than enough to find me.
As for mail forwarding, I made sure all those who need to contact me, including these people had my new contact details.Tax utilities, banks, insurance, pensions, TV license, DVLA, the lot. Whether i had mail forwarded or not is not the point. They had the means to contact me at my new address wich they demonstrated by writing me letters about other matters. Yet they sent bills to an old address for some reason.
The result an alleged debt has grown from being something minor to something pretty big. Other than this, I have no debt, I have a great credit rating and I pay what I owe. I would not ignore a debt like this, and let it run up to 4 figures.
It's like this. You pay someone an agreed ammount every month to provide a service. They take that payment which they tell you is enough to cover the money owed. They decide for whatever reason that what you pay is not enough. They have the means to contact you about this matter (a current address and telephone number). Yet they do not contact you at this address but send revised bills for one year to an address they have been told is defunct. They still take the originally agreed payment but this is not enough to cover the new cost. They do this for a year and then revise the payment from £40 to £400 to cover a by now sizeable debt. They still do not contact me about this matter at the correct address.
I only find out by chance when mail to my old house (Xmas cards from some distant acquaintances and some junk mail) is brought round by a former neighbour. Had this not happened I would be none the wiser. My household bills account fortunately has enough money in it to absorb the price hike £40 a month to £400. It won't have next month! I keep a £500 reserve in it to buffer and f
k ups and blips like this. Their incompetence led to this situation.
Sorry I may not be fully understanding what has happened here, but.....
normally when you leave an address you advise the utility supply company & provide them with a meter reading on the date you depart. You then do the same at the new address, advise them & supply a meter reading.
Did this happen in this case? If so I'm not sure how there can be the dispute. The matter of which addresses are used is/should be an irrelevance.
normally when you leave an address you advise the utility supply company & provide them with a meter reading on the date you depart. You then do the same at the new address, advise them & supply a meter reading.
Did this happen in this case? If so I'm not sure how there can be the dispute. The matter of which addresses are used is/should be an irrelevance.
Johnd52 said:
The address is largely irrelevant. If you had a contract and consumed the energy you will owe the money. If the charge is inaccurate, based on estimates this will be adjusted.
From the utility company's point of view they generally default to the supply address as it does not move and the consumer has to be there.
But they did not default to the supply address.From the utility company's point of view they generally default to the supply address as it does not move and the consumer has to be there.
I get the point about consuming the energy. If and this is a different argument, if they are correct and the energy consumption they allege is correct, and had they told me this by contacting me at the supply address then I would have been able to deal with the matter, discus my concerns that they were wrong, find an alternative supplier, change tariff. Ie take reasonable steps to sort the issue when it was a small amount rather that £2.500.
Other than doing what I did, giving them my new address and phone number and paying a monthly direct debit there was nothing I could do as they were sending bills to the wrong address. They were reasonable steps to service the account and to give them an opportunity to contact me if they needed.
It appears their billing system has gone wrong or that it has not been updated properly. The result of a fault with their system is that I have a huge bill.
You're clutching at straws mate, either you used the energy or you didn't. Monthly direct debits are no indicator of what you've used. The wrong address stuff is just a minor inconvenience and not relevant to the debt. If you took meter readings when you moved out this would be straight forward. Trying to deny the debt because they sent some letters to the wrong address will get you nowhere.
Are you saying the the bill for the actual product used is, for argument's sake, £500, and the other £2000 is in additional charges related to the fact you've 'ignored' their attempts to collect the debt?
If that is the case, keep it simple, tell them they've been writing to the wrong address, that you furnished them with the correct address on 'x' date and therefore ask that they reset the bill to that time, to take into account their error.
If that is the case, keep it simple, tell them they've been writing to the wrong address, that you furnished them with the correct address on 'x' date and therefore ask that they reset the bill to that time, to take into account their error.
GT03ROB said:
Sorry I may not be fully understanding what has happened here, but.....
normally when you leave an address you advise the utility supply company & provide them with a meter reading on the date you depart. You then do the same at the new address, advise them & supply a meter reading.
Did this happen in this case? If so I'm not sure how there can be the dispute. The matter of which addresses are used is/should be an irrelevance.
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. This has nothing to do with services they provided at my old address.normally when you leave an address you advise the utility supply company & provide them with a meter reading on the date you depart. You then do the same at the new address, advise them & supply a meter reading.
Did this happen in this case? If so I'm not sure how there can be the dispute. The matter of which addresses are used is/should be an irrelevance.
I lived at my old address but acquired the new property. It was left to me when my mum died. When I acquired the house I set up an energy account for it in my name. I did not live there for several minths so the bill for the new property went to the house I was living in.
When I moved into the second property I told them this and told them to contact Me at the new address. This they did but for some reason stopped doing instead reverting to my old address for the quarterly bills.
wildcat45 said:
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. This has nothing to do with services they provided at my old address.
I lived at my old address but acquired the new property. It was left to me when my mum died. When I acquired the house I set up an energy account for it in my name. I did not live there for several minths so the bill for the new property went to the house I was living in.
When I moved into the second property I told them this and told them to contact Me at the new address. This they did but for some reason stopped doing instead reverting to my old address for the quarterly bills.
You're still not being clear. How did letters going to the wrong address cause the figure to rise to £2500?I lived at my old address but acquired the new property. It was left to me when my mum died. When I acquired the house I set up an energy account for it in my name. I did not live there for several minths so the bill for the new property went to the house I was living in.
When I moved into the second property I told them this and told them to contact Me at the new address. This they did but for some reason stopped doing instead reverting to my old address for the quarterly bills.
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