RE: Government admits use of hidden cameras
Wednesday 19th January 2005
Government admits to hidden cameras
Police use covert speed cameras to raise cash
A government document has revealed that the police admit to using covert speed cameras as a means of raising cash from the motorist, according to Car Parts Direct's Mark Cornwall.
Cornwall claims to have secured an internal government document to prove the actions of the police are based on greed - not road safety. As reported on PistonHeads two weeks ago, Cornwall is also taking legal action to prevent the government from banning their device (link below).
Cornwall said, "I have a document sent to me from my MP, Harry Barnes. The document confirms what most of our customers already know. Cameras are for cash and a policeman hidden behind a tree has become acceptable practice – the police now admit to carrying out 'covert camera activity' and 'cost recovery' as part of their normal traffic duties. Without our device the motorist has no chance."
The document also states the police view that radar detectors can seriously affect their ability to enforce speed limits. However, the government plans to ban radar detectors that can detect both mobile and static Gatso cameras as well as police laser guns, a ban that will become law following the passage of the Road Safety Act which is currently starting its journey through the legislative process, and which could become law this year.
Most speed camera warning systems work using GPS, which warn you where speed cameras are by comparing known camera positions with that of your vehicle. They cannot pick up hidden mobile cameras, such as the policeman in the van or the officer with his hand held laser or radar gun. According to Car Parts Direct's Mark Cornwall, the government has said that it willing to let this type of device remain legal.
Both Car Parts Direct and road safety expert Paul Smith who operates the UK’s leading motorist safety website www.safespeed.org.uk maintain that a radar detector does exactly what a speed camera is supposed to do – it helps to keep a motorist within the law.
Cornwall added. "While we have stock of the Quintezz radar detector at the moment we don’t know for how long. If the government get their way no motorist will be able to buy our speed camera spotter - at any price."
Car Parts Direct has published the action it intends to take against the government, including continuing to pay the £60 speeding fine cash-back and claiming £100 compensation from the government for motorists who use its speed camera detection device. Car Parts Direct is also collating stories from motorists who believe they have become victims by the unreasonable use of speed cameras.
Cornwall added: "The stories from motorists posted on our website will be used along with documented evidence to claim compensation for the motorist in the European Court of Human Rights."
www.pistonheads.com/speed/default.asp?storyId=9671
Picture courtesy www.speedcam.co.uk/
Discussion
There can't be many people left in this country who believe hidden Scameras are a good thing. Come on Michael Howard, get vocal about your manifesto on this and tell everyone you will scrap all Scamera teams and any covert detection.
Place visible speed traps in places where speeding really is naughty like past schools and hospitals if you really want to reduce road deaths. Oh, and invest in more traffic Police.
Place visible speed traps in places where speeding really is naughty like past schools and hospitals if you really want to reduce road deaths. Oh, and invest in more traffic Police.
I wonder how many police on and off duty go past these hidden "cash collection points" and either get let off with a verbal or ignored when normal motorists get the pay up.
Afterall, it's not in their interests if they are collecting money, to fine and give points to their own is it?
Wonder if it's possible for members of the public to record data for use in court against speed offenders. Would be nice to sit along nice clear safe sections of road that have stupidly low speed limits near some police stations, and get them at their own game! Maybe get some of those "speeding kills", camera partnership types too, the ones who grumble and have a 30mph limit put up in their village and then overtake me at 50mph to pull in their drive 100m ahead in their big Merc or X5.
Would be nice to see how the "enforcers of law and safety" are seen in the public eye after we get good old Trevor MacDonald on ITV to make a big deal out of them
What a weird and wonderfull world we live in... Road deaths up, income up, road safety down... thats a job well done
Dave
Afterall, it's not in their interests if they are collecting money, to fine and give points to their own is it?
Wonder if it's possible for members of the public to record data for use in court against speed offenders. Would be nice to sit along nice clear safe sections of road that have stupidly low speed limits near some police stations, and get them at their own game! Maybe get some of those "speeding kills", camera partnership types too, the ones who grumble and have a 30mph limit put up in their village and then overtake me at 50mph to pull in their drive 100m ahead in their big Merc or X5.
Would be nice to see how the "enforcers of law and safety" are seen in the public eye after we get good old Trevor MacDonald on ITV to make a big deal out of them
What a weird and wonderfull world we live in... Road deaths up, income up, road safety down... thats a job well done
Dave
Is anyone who has even half a brain really surprised by this?
This, of course, is exactly why the government wants to ban detectors that detect mobile revenue-gathering schemes - so that more and more mobile traps will be deployed, thus rendering GPS devices that show the location of fixed cameras relatively redundant.
This, of course, is exactly why the government wants to ban detectors that detect mobile revenue-gathering schemes - so that more and more mobile traps will be deployed, thus rendering GPS devices that show the location of fixed cameras relatively redundant.
Mr Whippy said:
Wonder if it's possible for members of the public to record data for use in court against speed offenders. Would be nice to sit along nice clear safe sections of road that have stupidly low speed limits near some police stations, and get them at their own game! Maybe get some of those "speeding kills", camera partnership types too, the ones who grumble and have a 30mph limit put up in their village and then overtake me at 50mph to pull in their drive 100m ahead in their big Merc or X5.
Dave
Don't you remember "The Sun" newspaper twice catching CC Brunstrom's daughter speeding. After an 'independent' investigation by another Police force, it was decided that, as the laser operator was not properly trained, there was no evidence.
Well, we should get some properly trained ex-police officers or something.
Mind you, they can always blag that they are really hard to use and need constant training, blah blah.
In the end of the day, anyone can be taught to aim a device and press a few buttons. If it was soooo hard, you'd need a degree in physics to operate one.
Just another get out clause then. Talk about police state, do what they want and don't have to answer to no one since they are covered by the people above them, and so on, right upto Blair and his brigade I expect.
Suppose eventually, with recognition devices and digital camera's becoming so powerfull, we could have a computer scan the road ahead for hidden police and all sorts, purely from the incoming photons (ie, what our eyes get).
I expect though that they will ban "enhanced" viewing abilities, and all road users must wear beer goggles to impair their ability to pervert the course of justice by spotting the police.
Arghhh, they go on at us to slow down at dangerous bits of road, and then take away a good way of making us do so.
Wonder when the means to make a speeding offence and be caught outweigh the road safety?
Is it moral and right to not inform a driver of a hazard even though they may be breaching the speed limit, or even worse, to not allow them to inform themselves, even if they are NOT speeding, and just want to be excessively safe at a dangerous part of road?
Surely the fact that they prefer you to speed at KNOWN dangerous sections of road shows they are just after money.
Sickening, and makes the law enforment even less trusted and liked. A shame really...
Dave
Mind you, they can always blag that they are really hard to use and need constant training, blah blah.
In the end of the day, anyone can be taught to aim a device and press a few buttons. If it was soooo hard, you'd need a degree in physics to operate one.
Just another get out clause then. Talk about police state, do what they want and don't have to answer to no one since they are covered by the people above them, and so on, right upto Blair and his brigade I expect.
Suppose eventually, with recognition devices and digital camera's becoming so powerfull, we could have a computer scan the road ahead for hidden police and all sorts, purely from the incoming photons (ie, what our eyes get).
I expect though that they will ban "enhanced" viewing abilities, and all road users must wear beer goggles to impair their ability to pervert the course of justice by spotting the police.
Arghhh, they go on at us to slow down at dangerous bits of road, and then take away a good way of making us do so.
Wonder when the means to make a speeding offence and be caught outweigh the road safety?
Is it moral and right to not inform a driver of a hazard even though they may be breaching the speed limit, or even worse, to not allow them to inform themselves, even if they are NOT speeding, and just want to be excessively safe at a dangerous part of road?
Surely the fact that they prefer you to speed at KNOWN dangerous sections of road shows they are just after money.
Sickening, and makes the law enforment even less trusted and liked. A shame really...
Dave
Well said Dave,
By annoying the motorist and having so many mobile scameras placed seemingly purely to generate revenue (on a bridge over a perfectly running motorway - would not Trafpol be a much better choice?) the Government has belittled the importance of speed enforcement at genuinely hazardous spots.
Stace.
>> Edited by stace3610 on Wednesday 19th January 12:59
By annoying the motorist and having so many mobile scameras placed seemingly purely to generate revenue (on a bridge over a perfectly running motorway - would not Trafpol be a much better choice?) the Government has belittled the importance of speed enforcement at genuinely hazardous spots.
Stace.
>> Edited by stace3610 on Wednesday 19th January 12:59
Mr Whippy said:
I wonder how many police on and off duty go past these hidden "cash collection points" and either get let off with a verbal or ignored when normal motorists get the pay up.
Afterall, it's not in their interests if they are collecting money, to fine and give points to their own is it?
Dave
Don't turn this into a Police witch hunt - they're doing their job and has been said on here before, many coppers have points on their licenses too.
It's the system and the rules which are the problem. I believe the majority os Scamera outfits have no Police presence at the roadside anyway. Yes, the Police hide too, but they're les of a problem than the Scamera teams. At least the Police are usually doing this in accident blackspots as opposed to the best location to catch people.
Targarama said:
I wonder how many police on and off duty go past these hidden "cash collection points" and either get let off with a verbal or ignored when normal motorists get the pay up.
Afterall, it's not in their interests if they are collecting money, to fine and give points to their own is it?
Dave
Don't turn this into a Police witch hunt - they're doing their job and has been said on here before, many coppers have points on their licenses too.
It's the system and the rules which are the problem. I believe the majority os Scamera outfits have no Police presence at the roadside anyway. Yes, the Police hide too, but they're les of a problem than the Scamera teams. At least the Police are usually doing this in accident blackspots as opposed to the best location to catch people.
Don't have a go at the average police officer. They are as hacked off with this cash-camera folly as anyone else. They are also very much against the (illegal?) use of civvies to do the scamming.
One Met officer was clocked at 81 mph on the M6 in Cumbria by the Callaghan Silly Camera Pratnership one afternoon last Summer in light traffic conditions with dry and sunny weather. How do you think he felt. A Class 1 Met driver (or whatever the old Class 1 is called these days). He got 3 points and was saying how he felt that he shouldn't have been required to incriminate himself. He did not feel able to say that his wife had been driving, even though 3 points on his licence would be bad for him in his job.
My buddy in the Met, an inspector, has now fitted a Road Angel to his Subie WRX and is paranoid about cameras.
Remember, the BiB as as susceptable as the rest of us to being just over some silly, low, politically set speed limit. It's just that much worse for them when they get trapped by the cash-cameras. They don't set the rules and just have to work to the agenda of the Chief Cash-Collectors, sorry, Chief Constables.
Agreed, this isn't the Police's fault it is Government. How people can continue to look as if (polls) they will give Blair another landslide victory is totally beyond me.
I have posted on several threads about the validity of our current speed limits but no one has taken me up on the argument less Gone, which I replied to counter...
Why isn't there a comprehensive review of the speed limts in the country....and no I don't mean the status quo ...oh and we'll give 1 point and a fine for being 2 mph over the limit type rubbish masqueraiding as a review!
I have posted on several threads about the validity of our current speed limits but no one has taken me up on the argument less Gone, which I replied to counter...
Why isn't there a comprehensive review of the speed limts in the country....and no I don't mean the status quo ...oh and we'll give 1 point and a fine for being 2 mph over the limit type rubbish masqueraiding as a review!
Firstly - I shouldn't think that anyone is surprised by this.
Secondly - it just confirms what everyone knows, that the motorist is the easy picking for more income.
Thirdly and sadly - it again weakens the public's general respect for the law and its enforcers, and by that I do not mean in anyway the BiB, more their senior officers in the force, the courts and the government.
Secondly - it just confirms what everyone knows, that the motorist is the easy picking for more income.
Thirdly and sadly - it again weakens the public's general respect for the law and its enforcers, and by that I do not mean in anyway the BiB, more their senior officers in the force, the courts and the government.
Yeah,good point. No witch hunt intended.
What gets me more though is the amount of people I follow in 30mph zones every day and I get left behind doing 30 while everyone else does 40mph.
If everyone could be monitored in ONE day, I expect everyone would loose their license that very same day for a few 33mph in 30's for a few points, and maybe two or three breaches of the 70mph on the motorway at 74mph maybe?
However, statistically, this would probably mean that in that one day 50,000 people would die from the excessive speeding and accidents caused, but it doesn't. And it DOES happen every day, everyone goes a bit over all the time. At some point even the safest driver will think they can go a bit faster than the limit suggests.
Even the super safe can't know the location of blackspots, and taking away something like a blackspot locator is really stupid. Not being given prior knowledge when it is available and is a key factor in road safety (the reason they monitor speed to reduce accidents at blackspots) is a bit weird.
Clearly a cash making exercise paraded as a noble attempt to make the roads safer, even though they are already inherently safe because people generally don't want to die and don't expose themselves excessively.
It's just the select few silly mistakes that make people crash, for whatever reason, and catching the average joe day in day out for minor speeding will do bugger all anyway.
Oh well, time will tell!
Dave
What gets me more though is the amount of people I follow in 30mph zones every day and I get left behind doing 30 while everyone else does 40mph.
If everyone could be monitored in ONE day, I expect everyone would loose their license that very same day for a few 33mph in 30's for a few points, and maybe two or three breaches of the 70mph on the motorway at 74mph maybe?
However, statistically, this would probably mean that in that one day 50,000 people would die from the excessive speeding and accidents caused, but it doesn't. And it DOES happen every day, everyone goes a bit over all the time. At some point even the safest driver will think they can go a bit faster than the limit suggests.
Even the super safe can't know the location of blackspots, and taking away something like a blackspot locator is really stupid. Not being given prior knowledge when it is available and is a key factor in road safety (the reason they monitor speed to reduce accidents at blackspots) is a bit weird.
Clearly a cash making exercise paraded as a noble attempt to make the roads safer, even though they are already inherently safe because people generally don't want to die and don't expose themselves excessively.
It's just the select few silly mistakes that make people crash, for whatever reason, and catching the average joe day in day out for minor speeding will do bugger all anyway.
Oh well, time will tell!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Yeah,good point. No witch hunt intended.
What gets me more though is the amount of people I follow in 30mph zones every day and I get left behind doing 30 while everyone else does 40mph.
If everyone could be monitored in ONE day, I expect everyone would loose their license that very same day for a few 33mph in 30's for a few points, and maybe two or three breaches of the 70mph on the motorway at 74mph maybe?
However, statistically, this would probably mean that in that one day 50,000 people would die from the excessive speeding and accidents caused, but it doesn't. And it DOES happen every day, everyone goes a bit over all the time. At some point even the safest driver will think they can go a bit faster than the limit suggests.
Even the super safe can't know the location of blackspots, and taking away something like a blackspot locator is really stupid. Not being given prior knowledge when it is available and is a key factor in road safety (the reason they monitor speed to reduce accidents at blackspots) is a bit weird.
Clearly a cash making exercise paraded as a noble attempt to make the roads safer, even though they are already inherently safe because people generally don't want to die and don't expose themselves excessively.
It's just the select few silly mistakes that make people crash, for whatever reason, and catching the average joe day in day out for minor speeding will do bugger all anyway.
Oh well, time will tell!
Dave
Yeah, had one of those 40 in a 30 people the other evening. 6 miles of backroads behind a Daewoo Matiz and a second car at 40mph, second car not passing, not easy for me so I just waited. We entered a village with streetlighting and the Matiz sped up! - just as we entered the 30mph zone. At this point the Matiz and car 2 left me behind and they were no longer a problem. I bet when the Matiz gets a speeding ticket they'll not understand as they're such a slow driver normally
Just remember it is the inappropriate use of speed that kills not the actual speed. Clear motorway, 90mph, what is the problem? Same as the 20 mph limit near schools, this is correct at school time hours but at night or at weekends it does not equate. When are motorists going to get angry enough about this to make a stand. I do hope that some kind of organisation starts up and gets the public to start putting thier point of view across to this deaf government.
Damn Blair
Damn Blair
nords said:
Agreed, this isn't the Police's fault it is Government.
But it is (as well as the Governments)
It is the CC who guides and sets police priorities. It is the CC who decides whether they wish to part of the SCP. It is the CC who has decided to pursue this cause of policing in order to feather his own nest.
While the rank and file have little choice but to follow policy they belong to a "union" which could elect to make a public issue of the matter but they choose not to.
It's usually human error that causes crashes. Incorrect observation/reaction to the observations made that is the killer.
No amount of slowing down will improve matters. You only have to look at the loss of trend despite ABS & airbags to realise this.
Are we allowed to sue the numpties in charge for corporate manslaughter? If negligence like they display was allowed in aviation, they would be sued until the pips squeeked!
No amount of slowing down will improve matters. You only have to look at the loss of trend despite ABS & airbags to realise this.
Are we allowed to sue the numpties in charge for corporate manslaughter? If negligence like they display was allowed in aviation, they would be sued until the pips squeeked!
More reasons to start packing your bags.
Bliar will get in again, the numpties of the nation will vote him in because the Sun, Mirror and Star will tell them that Howard looks funny or has wonky teeth or something.
Another 4 years of watching these f
kwits turn the country inside out and moving another leap closer to a police state.
The idiots are at the wheel
and we're all passengers locked in the boot 
Bliar will get in again, the numpties of the nation will vote him in because the Sun, Mirror and Star will tell them that Howard looks funny or has wonky teeth or something.
Another 4 years of watching these f
kwits turn the country inside out and moving another leap closer to a police state. The idiots are at the wheel
and we're all passengers locked in the boot There is a flawed logic behind this site's grumbles about revenue generation.
If you accept that there need to be speed limits, then they should be enforced. If you dont agree with that, or think the limits are wrong, thats another issue.
If a copper catches someone who is breaking a speed limit, then he's doing his job. If he's trying to catch speedsters and therefore unable to stop bankrobbers, thats another issue. Accusing them of revenue generation seems to me to be missing the point. Get over it!
If you accept that there need to be speed limits, then they should be enforced. If you dont agree with that, or think the limits are wrong, thats another issue.
If a copper catches someone who is breaking a speed limit, then he's doing his job. If he's trying to catch speedsters and therefore unable to stop bankrobbers, thats another issue. Accusing them of revenue generation seems to me to be missing the point. Get over it!
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