Counterfeit goods
Discussion
On 13th April 2015 I purchased some items from an online 'vape' (posh e-cig) supplier. They included a high end 50w battery (£40), a liquid reservoir ('tank') and spare atomisers etc.
On receipt of the goods, I noted that the battery lacked the usual manufacturer's 'security panel', which is a scratch off lottery style section hiding a security code. This code is designed to be checked on the manufacturer's website to verify the authenticity of the product. Having communicated with the manufacturer, they confirmed the battery was counterfeit and that it was a common problem.
I immediately emailed the supplier (a Limited company registered in England & Wales), and outlined my complaint. I included the email from the manufacturer stating the device was not legitimate. Unfortunately the supplying company have refused to reply to any correspondence.
I paid for the order via PayPal. Expecting an easy resolution I logged in to PayPal but noted one could only raise a dispute/chargeback for items that were (variously) late, damaged, not provided, etc. To be able to raise a dispute for, and be recompensed for, a counterfeit item PayPal require a rather long list of things. This includes a police report (actual copy of a report), crime reference number, a letter from the duty inspector signed to confirm the item is counterfeit and that a crime has been reported, and a report from an independent third party expert confirming the counterfeit nature of the goods.
Seriously?! I can't even imagine going into the local police station and asking for all that over a battery.
However, said item has now already ceased working properly. Genuine branded batteries of this make are highly regarded and have a comprehensive warranty. Obviously with counterfeit goods my recourse to the OEM is nil. The supplying company company, as said, are ignoring me entirely. I did just realise, having logged into PayPal for an unrelated matter, that the transaction was charged via my credit card as the funding source. Does this mean I am able/entitled to approach the CC company and request a chargeback, file a dispute or whatever? I realise PayPal is 'a' level of alleged buyer protection but if the funds ultimately originated from a credit card then surely I'm legally covered for the cost of the counterfeit goods?
As an aside the matter was contemporaneously reported to trading standards via CAB online, and I received a response telling me I'd have to send recorded letters to the supplier and wait. I gave up at the time but with the new realisation about the credit card avenue and the item breaking, my interest is renewed.
I just wanted to ask for any tips or relevant experiences before I email the credit card company and potentially sound stupid. Thanks in advance.
On receipt of the goods, I noted that the battery lacked the usual manufacturer's 'security panel', which is a scratch off lottery style section hiding a security code. This code is designed to be checked on the manufacturer's website to verify the authenticity of the product. Having communicated with the manufacturer, they confirmed the battery was counterfeit and that it was a common problem.
I immediately emailed the supplier (a Limited company registered in England & Wales), and outlined my complaint. I included the email from the manufacturer stating the device was not legitimate. Unfortunately the supplying company have refused to reply to any correspondence.
I paid for the order via PayPal. Expecting an easy resolution I logged in to PayPal but noted one could only raise a dispute/chargeback for items that were (variously) late, damaged, not provided, etc. To be able to raise a dispute for, and be recompensed for, a counterfeit item PayPal require a rather long list of things. This includes a police report (actual copy of a report), crime reference number, a letter from the duty inspector signed to confirm the item is counterfeit and that a crime has been reported, and a report from an independent third party expert confirming the counterfeit nature of the goods.
Seriously?! I can't even imagine going into the local police station and asking for all that over a battery.
However, said item has now already ceased working properly. Genuine branded batteries of this make are highly regarded and have a comprehensive warranty. Obviously with counterfeit goods my recourse to the OEM is nil. The supplying company company, as said, are ignoring me entirely. I did just realise, having logged into PayPal for an unrelated matter, that the transaction was charged via my credit card as the funding source. Does this mean I am able/entitled to approach the CC company and request a chargeback, file a dispute or whatever? I realise PayPal is 'a' level of alleged buyer protection but if the funds ultimately originated from a credit card then surely I'm legally covered for the cost of the counterfeit goods?
As an aside the matter was contemporaneously reported to trading standards via CAB online, and I received a response telling me I'd have to send recorded letters to the supplier and wait. I gave up at the time but with the new realisation about the credit card avenue and the item breaking, my interest is renewed.
I just wanted to ask for any tips or relevant experiences before I email the credit card company and potentially sound stupid. Thanks in advance.
Report seller to trading standards for selling counterfeit goods as you stated is a start.
Good luck with paypal, its a joke.
I read somewhere that a CC is not covered (in the normal way) if done via paypal
Payments through Paypal
If you use your credit card to pay for something through PayPal and the funds go direct to the seller, then as long as the company you're buying from has a 'Commercial Entity Agreement' with Paypal you may still be able to claim against your credit card company under Section 75 for any misrepresentation or breach of contract. There are arguments that having another party involved in the process takes away the Section 75 protection.
PayPal offers its own buyer protection scheme, called PayPal Buyer Protection, so it's worth checking if you'd be covered by that if you have a problem with your purchase. If you particularly want to have the protection of Section 75 then look to pay the trader direct with your card.
Good luck with paypal, its a joke.
I read somewhere that a CC is not covered (in the normal way) if done via paypal
Payments through Paypal
If you use your credit card to pay for something through PayPal and the funds go direct to the seller, then as long as the company you're buying from has a 'Commercial Entity Agreement' with Paypal you may still be able to claim against your credit card company under Section 75 for any misrepresentation or breach of contract. There are arguments that having another party involved in the process takes away the Section 75 protection.
PayPal offers its own buyer protection scheme, called PayPal Buyer Protection, so it's worth checking if you'd be covered by that if you have a problem with your purchase. If you particularly want to have the protection of Section 75 then look to pay the trader direct with your card.
Edited by eatcustard on Friday 26th June 15:24
JZZ30 said:
Can you not report to paypal as 'not provided' ie. they didn't provide what you purchased?
I can only try, I suppose. PayPal only provide specific tick-boxes for disputes, into which your complaint has to fall. For example 'externally damaged', 'completely different item - i.e. brick instead of a book' and so on. I will try to file under 'entirely different item' and 'less valuable substitute' and see what they say. Since PayPal have an existing counterfeit policy however, I have a feeling they'll simply redirect me to it and close the dispute. Only one way to find out I suppose!M6L11 said:
JZZ30 said:
Can you not report to paypal as 'not provided' ie. they didn't provide what you purchased?
I can only try, I suppose. PayPal only provide specific tick-boxes for disputes, into which your complaint has to fall. For example 'externally damaged', 'completely different item - i.e. brick instead of a book' and so on. I will try to file under 'entirely different item' and 'less valuable substitute' and see what they say. Since PayPal have an existing counterfeit policy however, I have a feeling they'll simply redirect me to it and close the dispute. Only one way to find out I suppose!ZiggyNiva said:
Did you have to sign for the delivery?
Being honest I can't remember now. I was actually just thinking about that as to the value of the claim (i.e. claiming back postage at the rates they advertise on their site - next day or economy). I'm pretty sure I got it next day as I was keen to receive the goods, but I certainly don't have any proof of such now. Surely Goods significantly not as described will cover it:
13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
ETA: from here: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Mark...
13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
ETA: from here: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Mark...
I recently bought an in car charger and cable on fleabay. I bought Belkin as I know they are type approved by Apple. When I plugged the phone in I got a "not an approved device message". I checked Belkin prices and realised that I had paid way under the odds and that I had probably bought counterfeited item.
Being the good citizen I am I called Belkin and explained, thanks say they, and we'll put you through to our specialist team that deal with counterfeits.
Then it gets silly, I have no idea where in the world I was put through to but the lady's comprehension of English was not up to scratch. Patiently I explained to her what had happened, but after ten minutes I gave up as she appeared incapable of understanding what I was saying. Specifically she kept repeating: "Counterfeit, I do not understand this word"
I gave up thinking I'd been put through to a counterfeit CS outfit.
Poor show Belkin.
Being the good citizen I am I called Belkin and explained, thanks say they, and we'll put you through to our specialist team that deal with counterfeits.
Then it gets silly, I have no idea where in the world I was put through to but the lady's comprehension of English was not up to scratch. Patiently I explained to her what had happened, but after ten minutes I gave up as she appeared incapable of understanding what I was saying. Specifically she kept repeating: "Counterfeit, I do not understand this word"
I gave up thinking I'd been put through to a counterfeit CS outfit.
Poor show Belkin.
Big_Dog said:
Surely Goods significantly not as described will cover it:
13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
ETA: from here: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Mark...
Spot on, thank you. I've already filed a dispute on those grounds and PayPal say I have 20 days left before their deadline for dispute expires. As such I gave the seller 5 working days to respond with a refund to the value of the battery plus postage. I also intimated TS are involved which might hopefully gee them along. If they don't reply I then have 15 days to ask PayPal to adjudicate which should be OK. 13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
ETA: from here: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Mark...
Thanks again everyone. I'll update with any progress.
M6L11 said:
Big_Dog said:
Surely Goods significantly not as described will cover it:
13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
ETA: from here: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Mark...
Spot on, thank you. I've already filed a dispute on those grounds and PayPal say I have 20 days left before their deadline for dispute expires. As such I gave the seller 5 working days to respond with a refund to the value of the battery plus postage. I also intimated TS are involved which might hopefully gee them along. If they don't reply I then have 15 days to ask PayPal to adjudicate which should be OK. 13.7 SNAD Definition
What is Significantly Not as Described (SNAD)?
An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:
You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
You purchased three items from a seller but only received two.
The item was damaged during shipment.
ETA: from here: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Mark...
Thanks again everyone. I'll update with any progress.
The seller has declined my claim in the PayPal dispute centre, or whatever it's called. Under the automated 'The seller has declined your request for a refund' message, the seller had written words to the effect of 'Send back the goods and we will refund you plus postage'.
I replied to state that it's a criminal offence to send counterfeit goods through the post in the UK, and supplied a link from PayPal confirming they now automatically allow refunds where the manufacturer has given written confirmation goods are counterfeit. I didn't actually know this until tonight, as a Google search for the legalities of posting counterfeit goods threw up a reply from PayPal on the same subject, in their own support forum. I already knew it was illegal to post fake goods, but searched to hopefully find the relevant statute to quote at them. That's when I found the PayPal statement. A lucky coincidence!
In light of this I've offered them the opportunity to reflect on their decision before I escalate to PayPal for adjudication. I don't think a refund will be far away. Hopefully...
I replied to state that it's a criminal offence to send counterfeit goods through the post in the UK, and supplied a link from PayPal confirming they now automatically allow refunds where the manufacturer has given written confirmation goods are counterfeit. I didn't actually know this until tonight, as a Google search for the legalities of posting counterfeit goods threw up a reply from PayPal on the same subject, in their own support forum. I already knew it was illegal to post fake goods, but searched to hopefully find the relevant statute to quote at them. That's when I found the PayPal statement. A lucky coincidence!
In light of this I've offered them the opportunity to reflect on their decision before I escalate to PayPal for adjudication. I don't think a refund will be far away. Hopefully...
Just a quick update. The seller replied saying they have receipts from 'their supplier' to prove the battery is genuine. I have an email from the manufacturer themselves saying it isn't genuine, and if it ever was (eg stolen stock) then without their security panel and serial number it's worthless as they won't honour any warranty.
Seller refused to budge, so I've escalated to PayPal as a claim for adjudication (rather than as a two-way dispute). Now waiting on the seller to reply before PayPal make a decision. I've offered to send the manufacturer's letter to PayPal as evidence for my case.
Seller refused to budge, so I've escalated to PayPal as a claim for adjudication (rather than as a two-way dispute). Now waiting on the seller to reply before PayPal make a decision. I've offered to send the manufacturer's letter to PayPal as evidence for my case.
Oakey said:
Erm, they offered you a refund plus your postage, what more do you want?
Not to have to return the counterfeit goods in order to receive said refund, as to do so is a criminal offence.ETA: Still waiting to hear back from TS on whether they wish to seize said goods (which no longer works anyway) as part of their investigation. Of course I'm not going to send back the evidence to the seller!
That sounds like a feeble excuse to get to keep the product and get your money back in my opinion.
Otherwise, what is to stop me phoning up an online retailer and saying "This item you sold me, it's counterfeit. I want my money back... no... sorry... I can't return the item.. because it's illegal to send it. You'll just have to take my word for it".
Also, I guess I broke the law when I returned my counterfeit Samsung memory card to Amazon although I'll take the chance of the police kicking down my door for this transgression in exchange for getting my f
king money back.
FFS, get a grip.
Otherwise, what is to stop me phoning up an online retailer and saying "This item you sold me, it's counterfeit. I want my money back... no... sorry... I can't return the item.. because it's illegal to send it. You'll just have to take my word for it".
Also, I guess I broke the law when I returned my counterfeit Samsung memory card to Amazon although I'll take the chance of the police kicking down my door for this transgression in exchange for getting my f
king money back.FFS, get a grip.
Oakey said:
That sounds like a feeble excuse to get to keep the product and get your money back in my opinion.
Otherwise, what is to stop me phoning up an online retailer and saying "This item you sold me, it's counterfeit. I want my money back... no... sorry... I can't return the item.. because it's illegal to send it. You'll just have to take my word for it".
Also, I guess I broke the law when I returned my counterfeit Samsung memory card to Amazon although I'll take the chance of the police kicking down my door for this transgression in exchange for getting my fking money back.
FFS, get a grip.
I don't care how it sounds, it's how it is. You seem awful riled over a few words on the internet chap. I've already in possession of a document from the OEM stating it's counterfeit, and PayPal have explicitly asked me not to return it (as have TS, as they're considering seizing it as they build a case against the seller). Otherwise, what is to stop me phoning up an online retailer and saying "This item you sold me, it's counterfeit. I want my money back... no... sorry... I can't return the item.. because it's illegal to send it. You'll just have to take my word for it".
Also, I guess I broke the law when I returned my counterfeit Samsung memory card to Amazon although I'll take the chance of the police kicking down my door for this transgression in exchange for getting my f
king money back.FFS, get a grip.
What are my options? Return it? Then say the seller 'forgets' to refund me. Who do I moan to? PayPal? "But we told you not to return it. Now you've both committed offences and we're washing our hands." Yeah that'll help. Then TS ask me for the evidence and I have to say sorry I posted it back to the seller I've already reported? No thanks mate.
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