This is absolutely tragic but someone at police Scotland
Discussion
Needs a boot in the hole.
UPDATE: MISSING MAN AND WOMAN, STIRLINGSHIRE
Assistant Chief Constable Kate Thomson, Local Policing East, said:
“Police Scotland were called to the M9 southbound near junction 9 at around 9.50am this morning (Weds 8 July) following a report of a one car road traffic collision involving a Renault Clio which had left the road. Officers attended and the male driver of the car was sadly pronounced dead at the scene. The female passenger was conveyed to the Southern General, Glasgow, where she is in a critical condition.
"We believe that this is connected to the ongoing missing persons search for John Yuill (28) and Lamara Bell (25).
“As part of our investigation into this incident, it has come to light that a call was made to police late on Sunday morning regarding a car which was reported as being off the road. For reasons currently being investigated, that report was not followed up at the time. Following a call this morning, officers attended the scene.
“Officers have notified the families of this update. Our thoughts are with both families at this difficult time.
“A full investigation is currently underway to establish the full circumstances of the incident.”
UPDATE: MISSING MAN AND WOMAN, STIRLINGSHIRE
Assistant Chief Constable Kate Thomson, Local Policing East, said:
“Police Scotland were called to the M9 southbound near junction 9 at around 9.50am this morning (Weds 8 July) following a report of a one car road traffic collision involving a Renault Clio which had left the road. Officers attended and the male driver of the car was sadly pronounced dead at the scene. The female passenger was conveyed to the Southern General, Glasgow, where she is in a critical condition.
"We believe that this is connected to the ongoing missing persons search for John Yuill (28) and Lamara Bell (25).
“As part of our investigation into this incident, it has come to light that a call was made to police late on Sunday morning regarding a car which was reported as being off the road. For reasons currently being investigated, that report was not followed up at the time. Following a call this morning, officers attended the scene.
“Officers have notified the families of this update. Our thoughts are with both families at this difficult time.
“A full investigation is currently underway to establish the full circumstances of the incident.”
Read this today myself - absolutely shocking. In my 2.5 years as a Special Constable with what was formerly Strathclyde Police, I never once witnessed a call not being attended and I was out a lot. I'd be keen to hear from the regulars on here as to how common not attending calls actually is, although I can understand them probably not wanting to comment on such a public forum.
You need to compartmentalise the incident and go through it.
For a start the BBC have written something which hasn't been said by the police. They've written:
In nearly all circumstances when the police are called, an incident is generated and categorised according to the NSIR on an electronic dispatch system. I'm not sure this is the latest document (and if Scotland use the exact same one), but it gives you a flavour of the nature of what they work from: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
It's perfectly possible it's a balls-up from the call handler (or someone else) in terms of recording, categorising and grading the incident. If so, it's rare given the above strict criteria they're trained in, but either way, let's wait until we have more than a few words about it first before we make any conclusions about who needs what.
For a start the BBC have written something which hasn't been said by the police. They've written:
BBC said:
A dead man and a seriously injured woman were found in a crashed car three days after the accident was reported to police, it has emerged.
Whereas the police statement says: police statement said:
As part of our investigation into this incident, it has come to light that a call was made to police late on Sunday morning regarding a car which was reported as being off the road.
The police received a call on Sunday morning about a car off the road. What does that tell us? Not much really. How was it described? How was it reported? How was it recorded? How did the reporting person describe it? Was it reported / interpreted / recorded as a broken down vehicle or anything else that wouldn't generate a police response? Lots of unknowns that could mean it was legitimate not to dispatch resource in the circumstances. In nearly all circumstances when the police are called, an incident is generated and categorised according to the NSIR on an electronic dispatch system. I'm not sure this is the latest document (and if Scotland use the exact same one), but it gives you a flavour of the nature of what they work from: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
It's perfectly possible it's a balls-up from the call handler (or someone else) in terms of recording, categorising and grading the incident. If so, it's rare given the above strict criteria they're trained in, but either way, let's wait until we have more than a few words about it first before we make any conclusions about who needs what.
Here are those words you are waiting for.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/08/inv...
Looks like an epic, undeniable, disgraceful failing somewhere along the chain; someone will probably be fired for this.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/08/inv...
Looks like an epic, undeniable, disgraceful failing somewhere along the chain; someone will probably be fired for this.
Point them out specifically to me, because I don't seem to be able to see them. I don't see the Guardian article as adding other than, "It is understood the matter will be referred to the police investigations and review commissioner (PIRC).".
The BBC article I quoted from covers the same ground: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-cent...
The BBC article I quoted from covers the same ground: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-cent...
It is all too easy to jump to conclusions.
There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
So long as the police investigate with an open mind and bring in independence if there's suspicion on their part, then if there's anything genuine to learn then let's hope it is.
Condemning without all the facts is frankly stupidity. Wanting all the facts to form a rational informed view and make changes as necessary is healthy for progress and what we owe the ones tragically involved.
There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
So long as the police investigate with an open mind and bring in independence if there's suspicion on their part, then if there's anything genuine to learn then let's hope it is.
Condemning without all the facts is frankly stupidity. Wanting all the facts to form a rational informed view and make changes as necessary is healthy for progress and what we owe the ones tragically involved.
A vehicle off the road and someone reporting having seen a vehicle crashing off the road are 2 very different things as has already been said.
If someone has closed the incident/log and its not been resourced correctly then someone indeed has failed in their job but I'm not going to be screaming for new arse holes to be ripped based on the press interpretation of events.
If someone has closed the incident/log and its not been resourced correctly then someone indeed has failed in their job but I'm not going to be screaming for new arse holes to be ripped based on the press interpretation of events.
A vehicle off the road on a motorway?
It's hardly likely to have been a breakdown is it. You would have thought the 'Roads Policing Division' could have had a wee look when they were passing, it's not like it's far from their base.
Either that or someone in the call centre hasn't passed on the message.
Regardless, Police Scotland or their employees have possibly allowed a man to die and a seriously injured woman to lie in a car for three days which has gone off the motorway.
It's hardly likely to have been a breakdown is it. You would have thought the 'Roads Policing Division' could have had a wee look when they were passing, it's not like it's far from their base.
Either that or someone in the call centre hasn't passed on the message.
Regardless, Police Scotland or their employees have possibly allowed a man to die and a seriously injured woman to lie in a car for three days which has gone off the motorway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-cent...
Scotland
Tayside and Central Scotland
Crash victims may have lain injured for three days
9 hours ago
From the section Tayside and Central Scotland
John Yuill and Lamara Bell
Police launched an appeal after John Yuill and Lamara Bell were reported missing
A dead man and a seriously injured woman were found in a crashed car three days after the accident was reported to police, it has emerged.
Police Scotland found the pair in a blue Renault Clio just off the M9 near Stirling on Wednesday.
The force admitted the crash had been reported to them on Sunday morning but had not been followed up.
It is believed the two people in the car may have been John Yuill and Lamara Bell.
Mr Yuill, 28, and Ms Bell, 25, had been reported missing to police after last being seen in the company of friends in the Loch Earn area of Stirlingshire in a blue Clio in the early hours of Sunday.
It is understood the couple are from the Falkirk area. A friend of Mr Yuill's described him on Facebook as a "great guy and a brilliant dad".
Police Scotland had launched an appeal for information about the couple on Monday afternoon.
At the time, the force said their disappearance was "completely out of character". It later released a photograph of the car they had been travelling in.
An investigation is being carried out into the incident by the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner.
null
Police Scotland released a photograph of the car Mr Yuill and Ms Bell had been travelling in as part of an appeal after they were reported missing
Assistant Chief Constable Kate Thomson of Police Scotland said officers had been called to the M9 southbound near junction 9 at about 09:50 on Wednesday following a report of a one-car crash involving a Renault Clio that had left the road.
The male driver of the car was pronounced dead at the scene, while the female passenger was taken to the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow, where she is in a critical condition.
She added: "We believe that this is connected to the ongoing missing persons search for John Yuill and Lamara Bell.
"As part of our investigation into this incident, it has come to light that a call was made to police late on Sunday morning regarding a car which was reported as being off the road.
"For reasons currently being investigated, that report was not followed up at the time. Following a call this morning, officers attended the scene.
"Officers have notified the families of this update. Our thoughts are with both families at this difficult time. A full investigation is currently under way to establish the full circumstances of the incident."
Scotland
Tayside and Central Scotland
Crash victims may have lain injured for three days
9 hours ago
From the section Tayside and Central Scotland
John Yuill and Lamara Bell
Police launched an appeal after John Yuill and Lamara Bell were reported missing
A dead man and a seriously injured woman were found in a crashed car three days after the accident was reported to police, it has emerged.
Police Scotland found the pair in a blue Renault Clio just off the M9 near Stirling on Wednesday.
The force admitted the crash had been reported to them on Sunday morning but had not been followed up.
It is believed the two people in the car may have been John Yuill and Lamara Bell.
Mr Yuill, 28, and Ms Bell, 25, had been reported missing to police after last being seen in the company of friends in the Loch Earn area of Stirlingshire in a blue Clio in the early hours of Sunday.
It is understood the couple are from the Falkirk area. A friend of Mr Yuill's described him on Facebook as a "great guy and a brilliant dad".
Police Scotland had launched an appeal for information about the couple on Monday afternoon.
At the time, the force said their disappearance was "completely out of character". It later released a photograph of the car they had been travelling in.
An investigation is being carried out into the incident by the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner.
null
Police Scotland released a photograph of the car Mr Yuill and Ms Bell had been travelling in as part of an appeal after they were reported missing
Assistant Chief Constable Kate Thomson of Police Scotland said officers had been called to the M9 southbound near junction 9 at about 09:50 on Wednesday following a report of a one-car crash involving a Renault Clio that had left the road.
The male driver of the car was pronounced dead at the scene, while the female passenger was taken to the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow, where she is in a critical condition.
She added: "We believe that this is connected to the ongoing missing persons search for John Yuill and Lamara Bell.
"As part of our investigation into this incident, it has come to light that a call was made to police late on Sunday morning regarding a car which was reported as being off the road.
"For reasons currently being investigated, that report was not followed up at the time. Following a call this morning, officers attended the scene.
"Officers have notified the families of this update. Our thoughts are with both families at this difficult time. A full investigation is currently under way to establish the full circumstances of the incident."
Edited by shambolic on Thursday 9th July 07:29
JonV8V said:
It is all too easy to jump to conclusions.
There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
So long as the police investigate with an open mind and bring in independence if there's suspicion on their part, then if there's anything genuine to learn then let's hope it is.
Condemning without all the facts is frankly stupidity. Wanting all the facts to form a rational informed view and make changes as necessary is healthy for progress and what we owe the ones tragically involved.
But don't forget if someone saw the R8 "speeding" (aka making good safe use of a clear road) a mile up the road by some slowster, they'll take that as somehow connected with the accident and assume that he was also "speeding" in place B making him prime suspect. As a safe and courteous driver there's just as much chance he was driving under the speed limit taking into account the hazard. So the police set a precedent when it comes to jumping to ill-informed conclusions.There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
So long as the police investigate with an open mind and bring in independence if there's suspicion on their part, then if there's anything genuine to learn then let's hope it is.
Condemning without all the facts is frankly stupidity. Wanting all the facts to form a rational informed view and make changes as necessary is healthy for progress and what we owe the ones tragically involved.
And perhaps after the new Scottish speeding crackdown announced recently, the police are dealing with the important issues of checking what number is on people's speedometer while driving around normally so have no time for trivia like this.
And yes, a deeply tragic situation for those involved
JonV8V said:
It is all too easy to jump to conclusions.
There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
So long as the police investigate with an open mind and bring in independence if there's suspicion on their part, then if there's anything genuine to learn then let's hope it is.
Condemning without all the facts is frankly stupidity. Wanting all the facts to form a rational informed view and make changes as necessary is healthy for progress and what we owe the ones tragically involved.
Near Weston Park by any chance?
Was it at the entrance, or the side road just before it?
There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
So long as the police investigate with an open mind and bring in independence if there's suspicion on their part, then if there's anything genuine to learn then let's hope it is.
Condemning without all the facts is frankly stupidity. Wanting all the facts to form a rational informed view and make changes as necessary is healthy for progress and what we owe the ones tragically involved.
Near Weston Park by any chance?
Was it at the entrance, or the side road just before it?
JonV8V said:
It is all too easy to jump to conclusions.
There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
Have a slightly different international example. There was a 5 car fatal accident near me on Monday on a fast road. A woman and child killed and a man in the same car (an ibiza) serious injured. Other cars included an R8. One man arrested and bailed. Everyone jumps on social media - r8 driver must be speeding and overtaking, And the seriously injured man has lost his wife and daughter.
It's certainly tragic for the family and all concerned but later news shows the seriously injured driver is 17, his mother and slightly younger sister are in the car. It's near a junction. A BMW driver is arrested and bailed. Even that may unfold to be inaccurate or very selective. Public speculation changes depenging on the wording - if the report had said '17 year old driver serious injured and 2 passengers killed' people would assume something else.
There was a plane crash at San Francisco airport (a plane trying to land, from memory) a few years ago, and the media was full of fifty variations of utter garbage for the first few days.
Only when the authorities finally handed out information was the truth of what had happened published in the media - until that point the feeding frenzy among the media and non-credible and contradictory guff they published was based on twitter reports from witnesses
.Mainstream media needs to get its act together sharpish (though I suspect it is too late now); even the BBC are reporting a crash on Sunday in the link upthread (earlier reports elsewhere were of "a car off the motorway on Sunday")...
Key word to sum up mainstream media today? "Gossip."
But whatever happened in the case in Scotland, it is very sad.
Assistant Chief Constable of Police Scotland said:
As part of our investigation into this incident, it has come to light that a call was made to police late on Sunday morning regarding a car which was reported as being off the road.
For reasons currently being investigated, that report was not followed up at the time. Following a call this morning, officers attended the scene.
Seems pretty clear to me - the police fFor reasons currently being investigated, that report was not followed up at the time. Following a call this morning, officers attended the scene.
ked up - and I am not a police basher. Tragic.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff