Tortoises rehomed but neglected - legal advice needed
Discussion
This is a duplicate thread to one in the "animals" forum - wasn't sure where was best. Mods: sorry to be a pain, feel free to delete/merge if you think that's best http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
My mum (68) has had tortoises since she was in her teens. 25+ years ago when we lived in Jersey, she bred tortoises, and at one point we had ~70. She was heavily involved with the Reptile section of what is now Durrell Wildlife Park. In short, theres not much she doesn’t know about them.
In the past 25 years back in England she stopped breeding and just kept her 11 “keepers” – adults she’d had since she was a teen herself, along with a few that she had taken from people that needed rehoming along the years.
At her age (living alone) she was finding it a bind keeping them over the summer months when they were awake – both in terms of cost and also the time required (not being able to have holidays, or even really a night away unless I could look after them). With heavy heart she investigated options to rehome, adamant she wanted them kept together. The best option we found was a wildlife sanctuary (open to the public) in Kent that agreed to take all 11, and we took them down late last summer.
We were donating them, and we also made a £400-500 donation to help with the feeding and the provision on a new run that the management told us they would be planning to develop. For the time being they would be kept inside, in a large square run in (effectively) a makeshift shed. Mum wasn’t happy about that, but believed it would be a temporary measure. Mum was extremely sad to see them go, but was told “if you ever change your mind you could have them back”.
She’d been on at me for ages about going to visit – I thought it would make her sad seeing them, but we went down on Saturday. When we met with the owner/manager and asked how they were we were told “well unfortunately two have died with the sniffles…”
We went to the same back room where the larger central enclosure had now changed to a very small L-shaped run around one corner of the room. Some straw but no food and no water (at that moment anyway). Only 4 of mums tortoises were there, and we were told that the other 5 living ones were in Lincolnshire where they have been going on a rotational basis staying with an ex-employee so that they get some outside time…
The 4 we saw on Saturday had lost a lot of weight. 1-2 had a visible nasal discharge (runny nose) – mum has never ever had a tortoise with this. In fact I can only remember 1-2 dying in my lifetime.
Mum is very non-confrontational so we thanked her for letting come to the staff areas and we left, saying we’d call and come back when the others were back – but later mum was extremely emotional and devastated that they are in such bad conditions and in a poor state of health. Yesterday we agreed that she should call and we’d take them back with a view to feed them up before hibernation, while looking for a more suitable permanent home.
Mum called today, and the “office manager” (who we met on Saturday) refused to let her speak to the owner unless she explained the reason for the call. When mum expressed her concerned the manager virtually exploded at her, saying “yes I know the accommodation isn’t as good as we had hoped for, we’re extremely underfunded and have x-thousand animals here to manage…” When mum said “right, so it would probably make sense that I ease your life by taking them back” she responded “we cant let you have them back without ensuring you have adequate facilities to look after them” (seriously…) They suggested they would need a vet to visit mums house and confirm its ok. We have nothing to fear in that respect of course, but would a random vet (near Woking) get involved in this?
They said they would call mum back tomorrow, and “want a 3rd party on the call” on their side to discuss the situation.
Something is extremely fishy in my opinion. Ive told mum to try and stay calm on the call and if they start being aggressive/threatening/unpleasant to say that she wants all further communication to be written.
Anyone have any idea how to proceed, assuming the call tomorrow doesn’t go well? Is it worth contacting the RSPCA?
Would welcome any advice – I hate seeing my mum so upset… she thought she was doing the right thing by them, considering some of them are already ~100 years old and very likely to outlive her…
My mum (68) has had tortoises since she was in her teens. 25+ years ago when we lived in Jersey, she bred tortoises, and at one point we had ~70. She was heavily involved with the Reptile section of what is now Durrell Wildlife Park. In short, theres not much she doesn’t know about them.
In the past 25 years back in England she stopped breeding and just kept her 11 “keepers” – adults she’d had since she was a teen herself, along with a few that she had taken from people that needed rehoming along the years.
At her age (living alone) she was finding it a bind keeping them over the summer months when they were awake – both in terms of cost and also the time required (not being able to have holidays, or even really a night away unless I could look after them). With heavy heart she investigated options to rehome, adamant she wanted them kept together. The best option we found was a wildlife sanctuary (open to the public) in Kent that agreed to take all 11, and we took them down late last summer.
We were donating them, and we also made a £400-500 donation to help with the feeding and the provision on a new run that the management told us they would be planning to develop. For the time being they would be kept inside, in a large square run in (effectively) a makeshift shed. Mum wasn’t happy about that, but believed it would be a temporary measure. Mum was extremely sad to see them go, but was told “if you ever change your mind you could have them back”.
She’d been on at me for ages about going to visit – I thought it would make her sad seeing them, but we went down on Saturday. When we met with the owner/manager and asked how they were we were told “well unfortunately two have died with the sniffles…”
We went to the same back room where the larger central enclosure had now changed to a very small L-shaped run around one corner of the room. Some straw but no food and no water (at that moment anyway). Only 4 of mums tortoises were there, and we were told that the other 5 living ones were in Lincolnshire where they have been going on a rotational basis staying with an ex-employee so that they get some outside time…
The 4 we saw on Saturday had lost a lot of weight. 1-2 had a visible nasal discharge (runny nose) – mum has never ever had a tortoise with this. In fact I can only remember 1-2 dying in my lifetime.
Mum is very non-confrontational so we thanked her for letting come to the staff areas and we left, saying we’d call and come back when the others were back – but later mum was extremely emotional and devastated that they are in such bad conditions and in a poor state of health. Yesterday we agreed that she should call and we’d take them back with a view to feed them up before hibernation, while looking for a more suitable permanent home.
Mum called today, and the “office manager” (who we met on Saturday) refused to let her speak to the owner unless she explained the reason for the call. When mum expressed her concerned the manager virtually exploded at her, saying “yes I know the accommodation isn’t as good as we had hoped for, we’re extremely underfunded and have x-thousand animals here to manage…” When mum said “right, so it would probably make sense that I ease your life by taking them back” she responded “we cant let you have them back without ensuring you have adequate facilities to look after them” (seriously…) They suggested they would need a vet to visit mums house and confirm its ok. We have nothing to fear in that respect of course, but would a random vet (near Woking) get involved in this?
They said they would call mum back tomorrow, and “want a 3rd party on the call” on their side to discuss the situation.
Something is extremely fishy in my opinion. Ive told mum to try and stay calm on the call and if they start being aggressive/threatening/unpleasant to say that she wants all further communication to be written.
Anyone have any idea how to proceed, assuming the call tomorrow doesn’t go well? Is it worth contacting the RSPCA?
Would welcome any advice – I hate seeing my mum so upset… she thought she was doing the right thing by them, considering some of them are already ~100 years old and very likely to outlive her…
At the end of the day if they are being mistreated then you could get the rspca involved, you may struggle to prove that a zoo is mistreating them though.
The important thing here is that you were told you could have them back if you changed your mind, I would focus on that rather than making it about mistreatment. Say your mother is lonely without them or something along those lines. You should bear in mind though that when you rehome any animal that you are not guaranteeing the same standard of care they receive from you. It just doesn't work like that, people have different standards of what are acceptable living conditions etc. In a zoo they will be treated as a spectator attraction not pets.
I'd take the home visit without hesitation, bearing in mind that the animals have survived there as long as they have. It seems like you are going to have to jump through hoops to get them back and if you want them back then just do what they want you to within reason.
The important thing here is that you were told you could have them back if you changed your mind, I would focus on that rather than making it about mistreatment. Say your mother is lonely without them or something along those lines. You should bear in mind though that when you rehome any animal that you are not guaranteeing the same standard of care they receive from you. It just doesn't work like that, people have different standards of what are acceptable living conditions etc. In a zoo they will be treated as a spectator attraction not pets.
I'd take the home visit without hesitation, bearing in mind that the animals have survived there as long as they have. It seems like you are going to have to jump through hoops to get them back and if you want them back then just do what they want you to within reason.
Sounds like the zoo are just following policy. Of course they will want and need to check that the new accommodation for a rehoused animal is suitable. Just imagine the bad press alone if they failed to do so and sent an animal to an unsuitable home.
Agree to the inspection, push for it do be done ASAP and concentrate on the fact that you were told these animals could be returned at any time.
Agree to the inspection, push for it do be done ASAP and concentrate on the fact that you were told these animals could be returned at any time.
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