Client refusing payment after work is completed.. any ideas?
Discussion
Hi all,
A friend of mine has created a piece of music for a client, at a pre-agreed rate of £20 an hour. The total number of hours worked was 13 hours, and there was back and forth communication going throughout the whole development of the work. The woman who commissioned this work eventually decided to go with another composer, after the finalised version of my friend's piece was sent to her.
There is now 13 hours of outstanding work which the woman is refusing to pay. She has stated:
"Fundamentally, I said I would pay you for the hours you worked. You claim to have worked 13 hours. I cannot see how. Despite the lengthy conversations and the all the demonstrations I gave you, the first draft was nowhere near what I asked you for.....
....
If you still expect paying for a piece of music we didn't like and won't use, please readjust your invoice to represent the actual number of hours you spent on it. I will not pay for 13 hours. I do not believe nor understand how it took you 13 hours."
She is complaining she was not happy with the piece of work, however there was agreement for the time to be paid for regardless of whether it was used or not. This woman is a lawyer, and is clearly using it to intimidate my friend so she doesn't have to pay for the work, but I'm just wondering legally whether she is entitled to pay for the work, even though she didn't use it for what she originally commissioned it for.
She later goes on to try and haggle my friend down to 3 hours, saying she thinks that is what it's worth, and after that she goes silent and does not reply to any of my friend's follow up emails.
Could the PH world help at all? My friend is not sure what to do, and might give up, but it seems absurd that she can get away with this. I'm under the impression that small claims court requires at least £500, and could cost more than he would get in fees anyway. Also have to bear in mind this woman is a lawyer.
Thanks in advance
A friend of mine has created a piece of music for a client, at a pre-agreed rate of £20 an hour. The total number of hours worked was 13 hours, and there was back and forth communication going throughout the whole development of the work. The woman who commissioned this work eventually decided to go with another composer, after the finalised version of my friend's piece was sent to her.
There is now 13 hours of outstanding work which the woman is refusing to pay. She has stated:
"Fundamentally, I said I would pay you for the hours you worked. You claim to have worked 13 hours. I cannot see how. Despite the lengthy conversations and the all the demonstrations I gave you, the first draft was nowhere near what I asked you for.....
....
If you still expect paying for a piece of music we didn't like and won't use, please readjust your invoice to represent the actual number of hours you spent on it. I will not pay for 13 hours. I do not believe nor understand how it took you 13 hours."
She is complaining she was not happy with the piece of work, however there was agreement for the time to be paid for regardless of whether it was used or not. This woman is a lawyer, and is clearly using it to intimidate my friend so she doesn't have to pay for the work, but I'm just wondering legally whether she is entitled to pay for the work, even though she didn't use it for what she originally commissioned it for.
She later goes on to try and haggle my friend down to 3 hours, saying she thinks that is what it's worth, and after that she goes silent and does not reply to any of my friend's follow up emails.
Could the PH world help at all? My friend is not sure what to do, and might give up, but it seems absurd that she can get away with this. I'm under the impression that small claims court requires at least £500, and could cost more than he would get in fees anyway. Also have to bear in mind this woman is a lawyer.
Thanks in advance
I can't help I'm afraid, but I will say that £260 doesn't sound a great deal to me for a commissioned piece. I'm sure it's probably the going rate, but it's not like the charge was thousands.
Trying to pay just £60 is taking the mickey in my view, bearing in mind that I'm in a related industry, so know how long any kind of video production takes (I appreciate this is music, but it's similar).
Trying to pay just £60 is taking the mickey in my view, bearing in mind that I'm in a related industry, so know how long any kind of video production takes (I appreciate this is music, but it's similar).
He has a record of work done yes, and yes she is clearly trying to back out or reduce the costs now that she doesn't like it. My friend has just graduated from a music production course, hence the cheaper than average rate. Clearly she's giving it a go, but the fact that she is now ignoring emails is extremely annoying. Not sure how to chase it up.
I'll have a look at that link. My friend is worried about small claims court, if he loses and has to pay the fees etc.
I'll have a look at that link. My friend is worried about small claims court, if he loses and has to pay the fees etc.
chrispwill said:
He has a record of work done yes, and yes she is clearly trying to back out or reduce the costs now that she doesn't like it. My friend has just graduated from a music production course, hence the cheaper than average rate. Clearly she's giving it a go, but the fact that she is now ignoring emails is extremely annoying. Not sure how to chase it up.
I'll have a look at that link. My friend is worried about small claims court, if he loses and has to pay the fees etc.
Where did he graduate, out of interest?I'll have a look at that link. My friend is worried about small claims court, if he loses and has to pay the fees etc.
The procedure for court is firstly you deliver a 'Letter before action' giving a final opportunity to pay, outlining what the claim will be for and outlining the evidence he will intend to use. In this case, it would be a timesheet showing the dates and times work was completed.
If that is presented to her, she really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
On the small claims track the fee will be something like £30 for a claim that size, and that will include sending her a copy of the claim etc. If she's really a lawyer she'll realise how much time the process burns up, and I don't think she'll want to go to a court hearing for £200.
LOL - anyone else find it funny a lawyer refusing to pay for hours worked - when they work in a profession that can and does frequently charge for "thinking time".
OP - perhaps your friend should try that. It's not just the time he spent at the musical instrument or writing notes on a sheet of paper - but also the time he spent "thinking" about the composition
OP - perhaps your friend should try that. It's not just the time he spent at the musical instrument or writing notes on a sheet of paper - but also the time he spent "thinking" about the composition
Edited by Moonhawk on Tuesday 21st July 13:14
JustinP1 said:
Where did he graduate, out of interest?
The procedure for court is firstly you deliver a 'Letter before action' giving a final opportunity to pay, outlining what the claim will be for and outlining the evidence he will intend to use. In this case, it would be a timesheet showing the dates and times work was completed.
If that is presented to her, she really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
On the small claims track the fee will be something like £30 for a claim that size, and that will include sending her a copy of the claim etc. If she's really a lawyer she'll realise how much time the process burns up, and I don't think she'll want to go to a court hearing for £200.
Thanks, this is really helpful. I'll get my friend to gather the evidence, and send them over along with the 'letter before action'. He's earning nothing at the moment as well, so looking at the small claims website it may be possible to have the fee waived.The procedure for court is firstly you deliver a 'Letter before action' giving a final opportunity to pay, outlining what the claim will be for and outlining the evidence he will intend to use. In this case, it would be a timesheet showing the dates and times work was completed.
If that is presented to her, she really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
On the small claims track the fee will be something like £30 for a claim that size, and that will include sending her a copy of the claim etc. If she's really a lawyer she'll realise how much time the process burns up, and I don't think she'll want to go to a court hearing for £200.
He graduated from SAE institute, it's in Hackney I think.
chrispwill said:
JustinP1 said:
Where did he graduate, out of interest?
The procedure for court is firstly you deliver a 'Letter before action' giving a final opportunity to pay, outlining what the claim will be for and outlining the evidence he will intend to use. In this case, it would be a timesheet showing the dates and times work was completed.
If that is presented to her, she really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
On the small claims track the fee will be something like £30 for a claim that size, and that will include sending her a copy of the claim etc. If she's really a lawyer she'll realise how much time the process burns up, and I don't think she'll want to go to a court hearing for £200.
Thanks, this is really helpful. I'll get my friend to gather the evidence, and send them over along with the 'letter before action'. He's earning nothing at the moment as well, so looking at the small claims website it may be possible to have the fee waived.The procedure for court is firstly you deliver a 'Letter before action' giving a final opportunity to pay, outlining what the claim will be for and outlining the evidence he will intend to use. In this case, it would be a timesheet showing the dates and times work was completed.
If that is presented to her, she really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
On the small claims track the fee will be something like £30 for a claim that size, and that will include sending her a copy of the claim etc. If she's really a lawyer she'll realise how much time the process burns up, and I don't think she'll want to go to a court hearing for £200.
He graduated from SAE institute, it's in Hackney I think.
A friendly tip I'd put froward is always get a contract in writing. People think music is for free.
Get him to Google 'Letter before Action', plenty of templates will be up there. Send it by recorded delivery to her home address, giving two weeks to pay.
Acidrop said:
Sorry not really helpful, but never send out a completed piece of music until you have received full payment. I used to produce music and would send clips of finished articles, and if the person was happy and paid, I sent the full length track.
I'll tell him to do this next time to avoid further issues. But just wondering, through your method you don't get paid for any work you have done provided they refuse the final piece. Is this the norm, or should you be getting paid for time spent on the project anyway?chrispwill said:
irocfan said:
Try reporting to the law society for unethical behaviour?
She is a lawyer by day, the piece of work requested was for a musical production which is done in her spare time, so not sure what firm she works forMoonhawk said:
LOL - anyone else find it funny a lawyer refusing to pay for hours worked and asking for "proof" - when they work in a profession that can and does frequently charge for "thinking time".
OP - perhaps your friend should try that. It's not just the time he spent at the musical instrument or writing notes on a sheet of paper - but also the time he spent "thinking" about the composition
Use the term 'Due Consideration' - that should cover the time spent between formulating and rejecting numerous musical ideas and motifs until the ones deemed suitable enough were put into production.OP - perhaps your friend should try that. It's not just the time he spent at the musical instrument or writing notes on a sheet of paper - but also the time he spent "thinking" about the composition
And your friend might like to ask the client how long does she think it takes to write a 3 minute 30 second pop song? The answer is not 3 minute 30 seconds...
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