Where would you site this camera van for 'safety'? (pics)
Discussion
I'm just trying to reconcile statements like "we do not make any profit from speed and red light camera fines. Safety cameras are there to make roads safer not to make money. There is no incentive for us to place cameras anywhere other than where they are needed to improve road safety".
Sounds positive and plausible? So an example:
Option 1:
Place van bottom right tucked in pointing towards part of a (very rare for the A470) mile long straight
Option 2: In the newly reduced limit village 1/4 mile after the straight. By the busy farmers merchant that always crosses the road moving goods between his sites, by the school before a junction near the post office and pub?
There are 3 junctions and a driveway entrance within 100 yards rearwards too.
You will then deduce where I always see one and where I NEVER see one...
I have no issues with camera vans per se (we'd all welcome one in our street wouldn't we or by our kids' school). But were they not meant to be only sited where there had actually been accidents (whether attributable to excess speed or not) i.e. speed related casualty hotspots? Or is that concept long gone (my licence has been so clean for so many years I have forgotten - so no sour grapes here just want to get up to speed on things and know how they think
?
Sounds positive and plausible? So an example:
Option 1:
Place van bottom right tucked in pointing towards part of a (very rare for the A470) mile long straight
Option 2: In the newly reduced limit village 1/4 mile after the straight. By the busy farmers merchant that always crosses the road moving goods between his sites, by the school before a junction near the post office and pub?
There are 3 junctions and a driveway entrance within 100 yards rearwards too.
You will then deduce where I always see one and where I NEVER see one...
I have no issues with camera vans per se (we'd all welcome one in our street wouldn't we or by our kids' school). But were they not meant to be only sited where there had actually been accidents (whether attributable to excess speed or not) i.e. speed related casualty hotspots? Or is that concept long gone (my licence has been so clean for so many years I have forgotten - so no sour grapes here just want to get up to speed on things and know how they think
? On the SAC I went on, there was all that stuff spouted about the positioning of vans and cameras about how it's only after a certain accident has happened, accident blackspots etc. I asked how that was accomplished. Ie by what rules, or what codes or what protocols or anything really that made it happen.
After some backwards and forwards -ing it turned out it was more hope than guidelines and certainly no rules involved. When I suggested what they were saying was therefore largely made up, there was gnashing of teeth, shuffling about etc.
I think that was one of the points where it was suggested I was being unhelpful. I offered to stop being unhelpful if the course-givers would stop making things up.
Being the resident SAC gobs
te I decided to STFU at that point as I was becoming unpopular amongst my fellow sheep
Bert
After some backwards and forwards -ing it turned out it was more hope than guidelines and certainly no rules involved. When I suggested what they were saying was therefore largely made up, there was gnashing of teeth, shuffling about etc.
I think that was one of the points where it was suggested I was being unhelpful. I offered to stop being unhelpful if the course-givers would stop making things up.
Being the resident SAC gobs
te I decided to STFU at that point as I was becoming unpopular amongst my fellow sheep Bert
You will probably find that a speed survey was taken on this road and traffic is slower around the bottom 2 pictures due to junctions and general road layout/roadside furniture. The survey probably showed that there was a higher percentage of cars speeding in the top location.
In Hampshire we undertake speed surveys in response to residents complaints, if it meets to threshold for enforcement the location is sent to the roads policing unit for camera van consideration.
In Hampshire we undertake speed surveys in response to residents complaints, if it meets to threshold for enforcement the location is sent to the roads policing unit for camera van consideration.
HantsRat said:
You will probably find that a speed survey was taken on this road and traffic is slower around the bottom 2 pictures due to junctions and general road layout/roadside furniture. The survey probably showed that there was a higher percentage of cars speeding in the top location.
In Hampshire we undertake speed surveys in response to residents complaints, if it meets to threshold for enforcement the location is sent to the roads policing unit for camera van consideration.
Yes that makes total sense (and gladly so). Drivers do overtake on that straight as it is the safest place to do so for many miles - but I have also seen drivers slam the anchors on mid overtake when they spot the van as their speed may have crept over the limit for a split second. Very ugly and rather hazardous. Coppers would apply the law of common sense but cameras send an invoice for £100. I guess my point is not tolerating 'speeding' but using the vans where they would serve best intended purpose IMHO. I also know I'm on a loser as speeding is an absolute, but for every 100 chaps doing 66 on that straight wouldn't one caught doing 45 in the 30 be a better result?In Hampshire we undertake speed surveys in response to residents complaints, if it meets to threshold for enforcement the location is sent to the roads policing unit for camera van consideration.
People do seem to be 'learning though:
Dyfed & Powys areas
2012: 14541 caught
2011: 14798
2010: 18958
That's about £5 million in fines - bang to rights!
BertBert said:
On the SAC I went on, there was all that stuff spouted about the positioning of vans and cameras about how it's only after a certain accident has happened, accident blackspots etc. I asked how that was accomplished. Ie by what rules, or what codes or what protocols or anything really that made it happen.
After some backwards and forwards -ing it turned out it was more hope than guidelines and certainly no rules involved. When I suggested what they were saying was therefore largely made up, there was gnashing of teeth, shuffling about etc.
I think that was one of the points where it was suggested I was being unhelpful. I offered to stop being unhelpful if the course-givers would stop making things up.
Being the resident SAC gobste I decided to STFU at that point as I was becoming unpopular amongst my fellow sheep
Bert
I have been on one of these for a minor 5mph transgression 'bang to rights' and was pleasantly surprised. Chap was a biker and petrolhead and it was almost nothing to do with speed and all to do with reading the road, anticipation and observation. Zero preaching. You could feel pennies dropping amongst the course's nefarious atendees After some backwards and forwards -ing it turned out it was more hope than guidelines and certainly no rules involved. When I suggested what they were saying was therefore largely made up, there was gnashing of teeth, shuffling about etc.
I think that was one of the points where it was suggested I was being unhelpful. I offered to stop being unhelpful if the course-givers would stop making things up.
Being the resident SAC gobs
te I decided to STFU at that point as I was becoming unpopular amongst my fellow sheep Bert
. I hear they also keep retired top coppers out of mischief! Win win!Ken Figenus said:
People do seem to be 'learning though:
Dyfed & Powys areas
2012: 14541 caught
2011: 14798
2010: 18958
That's about £5 million in fines - bang to rights!
Are you suggesting that those figures show that MORE people are speeding and getting caught?Dyfed & Powys areas
2012: 14541 caught
2011: 14798
2010: 18958
That's about £5 million in fines - bang to rights!
I thought that speed cameras were supposed to DETER speeding?
After all, they DO claim that any reduction in deaths is due to the speed cameras - which cannot be true if MORE people are speeding?
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/News/Cumbria-safer-due-to...
SCP manager said:
Kevin Tea, communications manager for Cumbria Safety Cameras, said that, thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year. This is up on last year’s reduction of 44 per cent.
So all those safety features in our cars are not amounting to a hill of beans then? 
News and Star said:
THEY say the camera never lies – thousands of motorists have ignored the law and been snapped driving over the speed limit.
Over a period of 41 months, almost 19,000 people broke the speed limit on the A591 at Ings – or a staggering 463 per month.
In Barrow, at one of the most well-known speed cameras in the area, in Salthouse Road, there were 1,921 drivers caught – or almost 47 each month.
Over a period of 41 months, almost 19,000 people broke the speed limit on the A591 at Ings – or a staggering 463 per month.
In Barrow, at one of the most well-known speed cameras in the area, in Salthouse Road, there were 1,921 drivers caught – or almost 47 each month.
News and Star said:
But if the intention of placing bright yellow cameras in full view of drivers on straight roads is to slow them down to safer speeds, it is clear from these figures that it is not working.
Mill Wheel said:
Are you suggesting that those figures show that MORE people are speeding and getting caught?
I thought that speed cameras were supposed to DETER speeding?
After all, they DO claim that any reduction in deaths is due to the speed cameras - which cannot be true if MORE people are speeding?
I think those figures show the opposite mate - people are far more aware of limits and maybe other hazards these days I thought that speed cameras were supposed to DETER speeding?
After all, they DO claim that any reduction in deaths is due to the speed cameras - which cannot be true if MORE people are speeding?
Jeez this, from your link, cant possibly be right can it >> thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year<<
Edited by Ken Figenus on Monday 19th October 16:49
Ken Figenus said:
I think those figures show the opposite mate - people are far more aware of limits and maybe other hazards these days
Jeez this, from your link, cant possibly be right can it >> thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year<<
But since 2010 SCPs rely on SACs for income, not fines so if the figure falls too far, their income will dry up.Jeez this, from your link, cant possibly be right can it >> thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year<<
Our SCP runs courses at 5 location for up to 24 candidates, with two trainers.
Had he been on a Cumbria course,BertBert may have fallen foul of this condition in the SAC rules:
TTC rules said:
11. Satisfactory course completion is dependant upon attendance throughout the 4 hour duration of the course and making a full and positive contribution. If you leave the course before it finishes, it will classify as a noncompletion.
A £45 rearrangement fee will be charged if you wish to book on another course.
A £45 rearrangement fee will be charged if you wish to book on another course.
Mill Wheel said:
Ken Figenus said:
I think those figures show the opposite mate - people are far more aware of limits and maybe other hazards these days
Jeez this, from your link, cant possibly be right can it >> thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year<<
But since 2010 SCPs rely on SACs for income, not fines so if the figure falls too far, their income will dry up.Jeez this, from your link, cant possibly be right can it >> thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year<<
Our SCP runs courses at 5 location for up to 24 candidates, with two trainers.
Had he been on a Cumbria course,BertBert may have fallen foul of this condition in the SAC rules:
TTC rules said:
11. Satisfactory course completion is dependant upon attendance throughout the 4 hour duration of the course and making a full and positive contribution. If you leave the course before it finishes, it will classify as a noncompletion.
A £45 rearrangement fee will be charged if you wish to book on another course.
A £45 rearrangement fee will be charged if you wish to book on another course.
Some IAM stuff I'd done once came in very handy, and as he wasn't preachy or making absurd statements like >> thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year<< (WTF?) we all got on far far better than expected. He had a great approach and it was about common sense and roadsense not absolutes and dogma - which is the dry fodder we usually hear. No one could have been more surprised!11. Satisfactory course completion is dependant upon attendance throughout the 4 hour duration of the course and making a full and positive contribution. If you leave the course before it finishes, it will classify as a noncompletion.
A £45 rearrangement fee will be charged if you wish to book on another course.
So if I sit there fat dumb & p....d off & saying little I assume I'll not pass.
Does that mean I'll have to crawl begging for forgiveness?
A £45 rearrangement fee will be charged if you wish to book on another course.
So if I sit there fat dumb & p....d off & saying little I assume I'll not pass.
Does that mean I'll have to crawl begging for forgiveness?
Mill Wheel said:
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/News/Cumbria-safer-due-to...
The speed camera partnerships were told that "Public perception must be actively managed" (p87 in "The national safety camera programme"), and that they must employ a "dedicated communications manager" to do this. Kevin Tea seems to have been one of the many communications managers who performed this task by using misleading and false statements.SCP manager said:
Kevin Tea, communications manager for Cumbria Safety Cameras, said that, thanks to speed cameras, road deaths and serious injuries have been slashed by 52 per cent so far this year. This is up on last year’s reduction of 44 per cent.
So all those safety features in our cars are not amounting to a hill of beans then? Kevin Tea may well be right in saying that there is "a consistently high level of support" for speed cameras, but his deception clearly hasn't worked on everyone!
Camera van! When you should be keeping an eye left for the B road junction!
But seriously, don't get me wrong I am not condoning anyone hammering past that junction at 80 mph with impunity, as little old country lady pulls out in a Micra, not expecting some clown to be treating the road as a drag strip... But, as hazards and visibility go...
But seriously, don't get me wrong I am not condoning anyone hammering past that junction at 80 mph with impunity, as little old country lady pulls out in a Micra, not expecting some clown to be treating the road as a drag strip... But, as hazards and visibility go...
Of course the camera businesses place themselves wherever they are most likely to bring in the maximum revenue. That's why all the thousands caught were quite probably not in the process of crashing. That's why of all accidents surveyed over many years, about 96% have been shown to have occurred for reasons not related to excess speed for the conditions. The system is a scam and the fact that the speed awareness courses don't concentrate on speed much shows they don't have much to say on the subject and are of course brainwashing the wrong drivers - those who probably have a minimal accident history.
I don't agree with you that it it is a scam. I do think its a multimillion pound industry though and that commercial and maybe selfish individuals' considerations may sometimes come into play. That whole top cop SAC thing absolutely stinks. I think top cops have an experience that is greater than dedicating their 'retired' business life to dealing with offences of trivial excessive speed. Just look at the staff here http://www.roadsafetysupport.co.uk/about-us/our-te... it includes Mr banned doing 90mph http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/speed...
Running low on Alcan at the moment so I really want to believe their statements but I quite simply don't. And I dont NOT believe them as I conceptually dislike cameras as they limit my ability to speed with impunity (should i actually choose to), but because their actions simply don't match their words.
Over 800 caught breaking the 30mph in Llyswen a few miles up the road from my pic in 12m for example and that is a GOOD THING (especially if your front door faces that road). I guess I'm too selective
Running low on Alcan at the moment so I really want to believe their statements but I quite simply don't. And I dont NOT believe them as I conceptually dislike cameras as they limit my ability to speed with impunity (should i actually choose to), but because their actions simply don't match their words.
Over 800 caught breaking the 30mph in Llyswen a few miles up the road from my pic in 12m for example and that is a GOOD THING (especially if your front door faces that road). I guess I'm too selective
WJNB said:
So if I sit there fat dumb & p....d off & saying little I assume I'll not pass.
Didn't seem to impact the several people who were clearly pissed off and remained utterly silent throughout the course I did. As they were silent I can't confirm if they were dumb, but one or two of them may have been fat...Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff