Furniture / PayPal / Cancellation Issues
Discussion
I'll keep the background brief, but we ordered quite a number of pieces of furniture from a manufacturer.
There were a number of issues arising from their lack of internal communication (e.g. they made a double bed-head in 3 pieces so it would go up a tight staircase, but forgot to do the same for a king-size) and on the original delivery they forgot some minor items (a stool and some shelves).
One major issue, however, was with a single bed we'd ordered with a pull-out bed to slide underneath. It was described to us as 'being able to fit a standard single mattress and duvet' on the pull-out bed, and still be able to slide it back under. Elementary, of course, when you consider a pull-out bed is for space saving and you save no space if you still have to find room to store the mattress and duvet!
They also delivered a large free-standing mirror which we decided there and then that we no longer wanted. However, as this was a 'distance' purchase, we should have 14 days to cancel for whatever reason. Manufacturer rejected our cancellation, stating it was a 'bespoke' piece. We argued that it wasn't - it was made to their standard specification with no input from us.
Getting nowhere with the Seller, we raised a PayPal claim - but PayPal appear to have totally disregarded our cancellation rights, and have closed the claim in the Seller's favour saying that:
"After careful consideration, we're unable to decide this claim in your favour at this time.
The listing accurately described the item you received. We cannot grant claims based on buyer's remorse."
This isn't a case of buyer's remorse (incidentally that's what the Seller keeps describing this as, so PayPal have got that phrase from them!) but a request to cancel the item which should UK law allows us to do... no?
Seems PayPal only involve themselves if the item doesn't arrive or is different to what has been described... so in that case, what other options are open? Chargeback (it was paid using Amex card through PayPal)?
We still have a claim outstanding for the single bed. When that arrived, the 'gap' between the top of the pull-out bed and the bottom of the main bed is <15cm, which means we cannot put a standard single mattress and duvet on it and slide it under. Not even a cheap and poor quality one, let alone a standard one. I presume that case is more clear cut...?
Just hoping PayPal properly look at the evidence for this one and don't for whatever reason decide to side with the seller!
There were a number of issues arising from their lack of internal communication (e.g. they made a double bed-head in 3 pieces so it would go up a tight staircase, but forgot to do the same for a king-size) and on the original delivery they forgot some minor items (a stool and some shelves).
One major issue, however, was with a single bed we'd ordered with a pull-out bed to slide underneath. It was described to us as 'being able to fit a standard single mattress and duvet' on the pull-out bed, and still be able to slide it back under. Elementary, of course, when you consider a pull-out bed is for space saving and you save no space if you still have to find room to store the mattress and duvet!
They also delivered a large free-standing mirror which we decided there and then that we no longer wanted. However, as this was a 'distance' purchase, we should have 14 days to cancel for whatever reason. Manufacturer rejected our cancellation, stating it was a 'bespoke' piece. We argued that it wasn't - it was made to their standard specification with no input from us.
Getting nowhere with the Seller, we raised a PayPal claim - but PayPal appear to have totally disregarded our cancellation rights, and have closed the claim in the Seller's favour saying that:
"After careful consideration, we're unable to decide this claim in your favour at this time.
The listing accurately described the item you received. We cannot grant claims based on buyer's remorse."
This isn't a case of buyer's remorse (incidentally that's what the Seller keeps describing this as, so PayPal have got that phrase from them!) but a request to cancel the item which should UK law allows us to do... no?
Seems PayPal only involve themselves if the item doesn't arrive or is different to what has been described... so in that case, what other options are open? Chargeback (it was paid using Amex card through PayPal)?
We still have a claim outstanding for the single bed. When that arrived, the 'gap' between the top of the pull-out bed and the bottom of the main bed is <15cm, which means we cannot put a standard single mattress and duvet on it and slide it under. Not even a cheap and poor quality one, let alone a standard one. I presume that case is more clear cut...?
Just hoping PayPal properly look at the evidence for this one and don't for whatever reason decide to side with the seller!
Unfortunately you lose a lot of buying rights when you pay by Paypal that you could otherwise be afforded if you used a Credit/debit card even if it was funded by a card. The Paypal transaction basically wipes all that out as Paypal is the middle man.
I would have a read into the Consumer Contracts Regulations.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/...
I would have a read into the Consumer Contracts Regulations.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/...
JustinP1 said:
Was this in writing?
Yes. Actually in an Ebay message.I'm struggling to find any mattress that you'd want to use for anything other than a small child which measures less than 15cm. I've just measured a duvet and cover on an existing bed, and its (conservatively) 5-6cm). So by my conservative reckoning, the clearance needs to be 20+cm, not <15cm.
I'm providing measurements and the Seller's Ebay messages to PayPal so they can judge this for themselves.
I dont believe the order has to be specific your your requirements/custom but simply "made to order"; now they may well stock the mirror but if its sold on that basis you will have a hard job proving it IMO.
With regards to the single bed; surely its obvious the pull out mattress would be smaller?
ETA
Argos stock a 10cm mattress for £95 (W90, L190, D10cm)
With regards to the single bed; surely its obvious the pull out mattress would be smaller?
ETA
Argos stock a 10cm mattress for £95 (W90, L190, D10cm)
Edited by barryrs on Monday 2nd November 14:40
barryrs said:
With regards to the single bed; surely its obvious the pull out mattress would be smaller?
Why do you say that? Plenty are the same size. e.g.http://www.johnlewis.com/john-lewis-the-basics-woo...
Vaud said:
barryrs said:
With regards to the single bed; surely its obvious the pull out mattress would be smaller?
Why do you say that? Plenty are the same size. e.g.http://www.johnlewis.com/john-lewis-the-basics-woo...
barryrs said:
I dont believe the order has to be specific your your requirements/custom but simply "made to order"; now they may well stock the mirror but if its sold on that basis you will have a hard job proving it IMO.
With regards to the single bed; surely its obvious the pull out mattress would be smaller?
No, under the "new" (2014) legislation, 'made to order' doesn't cut it anymore. It actually has to be made to the customer's requirements.With regards to the single bed; surely its obvious the pull out mattress would be smaller?
Section 28 (1) (b) is the section you’re after: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regul...
28.—(1) This Part does not apply as regards the following—
(a)the supply of—
(i)goods, or
(ii)services, other than supply of water, gas, electricity or district heating,
for which the price is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled by the trader and which may occur within the cancellation period;
(b)the supply of goods that are made to the consumer’s specifications or are clearly personalised;
(c)the supply of goods which are liable to deteriorate or expire rapidly;
(d)the supply of alcoholic beverages, where—
(i)their price has been agreed at the time of the conclusion of the sales contract,
(ii)delivery of them can only take place after 30 days, and
(iii)their value is dependent on fluctuations in the market which cannot be controlled by the trader;
(e)contracts where the consumer has specifically requested a visit from the trader for the purpose of carrying out urgent repairs or maintenance;
(f)the supply of a newspaper, periodical or magazine with the exception of subscription contracts for the supply of such publications;
(g)contracts concluded at a public auction;
(h)the supply of accommodation, transport of goods, vehicle rental services, catering or services related to leisure activities, if the contract provides for a specific date or period of performance.
And regarding the mattress - no. There are plenty of pull-out beds on the market where the mattress is a standard single. Ours actually pulls out, raises on legs and stands the same height as the single bed. The single bed is actually made slightly longer to accommodate the bottom bed, and needs an infill piece - but no, when a standard single mattress is what we wanted to us, and what the seller told us would be the case, that's what we expected.
barryrs said:
My bad; however 15cm of clearance is enough to fit a standard sized 10cm deep mattress.
I disagree, but we would have to see the product description - "Able to fit a standard single mattress" should mean just that. A quick glance shows the standard (even v cheap ranges) to be 15-18-21cm?barryrs said:
Without seeing the mirror if you were given a choice of size or finish surely that is to the "customers requirements" just like a DFS sofa.
Nope. Saw the sort of mirror we wanted in their Ebay shop and asked them to add it to the order. All the furniture in that range is finished the same way.For some reason (we can't work out why) they actually invoiced for a mirror of slightly different dimensions to their Ebay listing, but we had no hand in this. I've been through all the correspondence again to check. We discussed (and had made) a dressing table mirror that we had total input to the sizing for) but the freestanding one, nope...
barryrs said:
Being a pull out mattress does it matter?
If there are off the shelf options to address the issue then buyers remorse does spring to mind.
Sure, but I also like sellers to be accurate with their descriptions.If there are off the shelf options to address the issue then buyers remorse does spring to mind.
A thiner mattress than planned is a material issue with a bed. A 10cm mattress is not going to be as comfortable as a 20cm mattress and there are vastly fewer choices.
timetex said:
barryrs said:
My bad; however 15cm of clearance is enough to fit a standard sized 10cm deep mattress.
Plus bedding (duvet and cover)...?No, I don't think it does. Besides, without labouring the point too much, the Seller actually says 'any standard single mattress'.
barryrs said:
Being a pull out mattress does it matter?
If there are off the shelf options to address the issue then buyers remorse does spring to mind.
It definitely should matter. The difference in a 10cm (shallow) and a standard (15+cm) mattress are pretty big, either in terms of comfort (quality) or durability, and the 10cm mattresses are (as far as I know) pretty much for 'little kids' only. They are designed to bear the weight (comfortably) of a normal person.If there are off the shelf options to address the issue then buyers remorse does spring to mind.
Appreciate the input - an unbiased opinion is useful, but I don't think it unreasonable to expect to be able to pick a standard mattress for the bed, and to push it back under with the duvet on it, especially as this is how it was described to me.
The story did get a little more complex... there were other issues with the bed which we didn't necessarily think were the seller's fault - and because we also wanted to order some more furniture, were more than prepared to work with them on this in the first instance. We offered to pay for some replacement bits which would have given us more clearance. The seller made the replacement bits, along with more furniture, but when it was all delivered the replacement bits were wrongly measured too (in a different dimension). Contacted the seller who initially suggested they replace them again (but could only do so after Christmas!) but when we said that wasn't acceptable, withdrew the offer of a replacement and then made it difficult to get a refund. Had to file a PayPal complaint for this as well, which fortunately they agreed on.
So, in summary, same seller - 3 PayPal disputes. Replacement bed parts found in our favour. Mirror - found in their favour. Original single bed / pull-out - PayPal want more information to decide the case.
Would be happy enough with a 2-1 result. I concede there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the mirror, we just don't want it now. Them's the breaks when you sell over the internet (OH's business is doing exactly that) and is this should be a standard-sized mirror, the law would have them take it back into 'stock' and refund the money paid. PayPal won't enforce that, though... let's hope they come through with the bed!
Sheepshanks said:
We used to have a bed like that but it came complete with mattresses - same one on both the main bed and the roll-away. The clearance was pretty tight - certainly couldn't have put it away with a duvet on it.
Being able to put the duvet on it was what we wanted, and what the seller proposed, though. I was expecting either the trundle to have a max height to give enough clearance OR the single bed to be made a few cm higher to accommodate. By their own admission, they almost forgot the trundle and their workshop made it the day of the delivery (!) which is probably why nobody took it into account, or cared about the measurements / clearance.Thermobaric said:
Unfortunately you lose a lot of buying rights when you pay by Paypal that you could otherwise be afforded if you used a Credit/debit card even if it was funded by a card. The Paypal transaction basically wipes all that out as Paypal is the middle man.
I would have a read into the Consumer Contracts Regulations.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/...
To be clear, Paypal removes your rights under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, which you would have if you paid directly by credit card. Debit cards do not have section 75 rights.I would have a read into the Consumer Contracts Regulations.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/...
You still have the same rights as if paying by cash.
thelawnet1 said:
To be clear, Paypal removes your rights under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, which you would have if you paid directly by credit card. Debit cards do not have section 75 rights.
You still have the same rights as if paying by cash.
yeah this is a bit crappy. I thought PayPal were usually quite good at handling things from a buyer's perspective, having seen things from both sides previously... but they won't assist in a refund in the event that the Seller refuses to accept a return under current UK legislation which is a bit pish.You still have the same rights as if paying by cash.
Not sure I can be bothered with a MCOL for the sake of £220, and (as above) I'd be happy if they side with me on the bed issue for a 2-1 overall outcome.
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