At what age do you stop being classed as a child?
Discussion
Brake seem to think it is 19.
www.brake.org.uk/index.php?p=119
Still, given the level of truancy admitted by the govt. and the typical young person behaviour patterns one expects when reaching a certain age, the 110 pedestrian fatalities in the 8-19 age group does not, frankly, seem that big a number.
Whilst I am sure that quite a few of them will be very sad and totally innocent cases my guess is that many more are not without some sort of risk increasing pre-actions. The teenage period and on into the early 20's has consistently been a high risk section of the population compared to other age groups.
The claimed 26% increase, using an age grouping I have never seen before as far as I can recall, still repesents a small number. Small enough that would be very difficult to define any action, no matter what the budget, to guarantee the eradication of a problem of this type.
On the other hand I do like the walking bus scheme. I have this image of loads of adolescents crocodiling along the streets, supervised by an army of Miss Trunchbull's.
Not sure how many of the older kids - say the 19 year age group - would join in.
www.brake.org.uk/index.php?p=119
Still, given the level of truancy admitted by the govt. and the typical young person behaviour patterns one expects when reaching a certain age, the 110 pedestrian fatalities in the 8-19 age group does not, frankly, seem that big a number.
Whilst I am sure that quite a few of them will be very sad and totally innocent cases my guess is that many more are not without some sort of risk increasing pre-actions. The teenage period and on into the early 20's has consistently been a high risk section of the population compared to other age groups.
The claimed 26% increase, using an age grouping I have never seen before as far as I can recall, still repesents a small number. Small enough that would be very difficult to define any action, no matter what the budget, to guarantee the eradication of a problem of this type.
On the other hand I do like the walking bus scheme. I have this image of loads of adolescents crocodiling along the streets, supervised by an army of Miss Trunchbull's.
Not sure how many of the older kids - say the 19 year age group - would join in.
Codswallop.
It depends on what it is. In my line of work , it's 16. In some areas it is 17 (e.g. driving), in some 18. If you go to some theme parks, it is 10.
It's obvious that Brake have selected the data to fit the pattern. It's quite easy to do ; look at the figures, select the group that "goes up".
Wierdly, why exclude the under-8s ?
I would say that "under 16" or "under 18" is quite reasonable, though most 16-18 year olds would resent being called "a child".
Ask them for the raw data
It depends on what it is. In my line of work , it's 16. In some areas it is 17 (e.g. driving), in some 18. If you go to some theme parks, it is 10.
It's obvious that Brake have selected the data to fit the pattern. It's quite easy to do ; look at the figures, select the group that "goes up".
Wierdly, why exclude the under-8s ?
I would say that "under 16" or "under 18" is quite reasonable, though most 16-18 year olds would resent being called "a child".
Ask them for the raw data
Here's one I don't understand. When my step-daughter flies to the States to see her dad, she is classed as an 'unaccommpanied minor' (she is 13) and we have to pay a lot more for her ticket as she has to have an airline 'nanny' to chaperone her.(we have no choice in this) When we all went on holiday she was classed as an adult. Go figure.
autismuk said:
Codswallop.
It depends on what it is. In my line of work , it's 16. In some areas it is 17 (e.g. driving), in some 18. If you go to some theme parks, it is 10.
It's obvious that Brake have selected the data to fit the pattern. It's quite easy to do ; look at the figures, select the group that "goes up".
Wierdly, why exclude the under-8s ?
I would say that "under 16" or "under 18" is quite reasonable, though most 16-18 year olds would resent being called "a child".
Ask them for the raw data
Govt. stats tend to group 0-5, 6-10 (or 0-10 as a whole), 11-15 and then other groupings according to 'need' from there on.
I don't think 'child' is seriously considered a suitable classification past the school leaving age - 16.
Driving ages are not too relevent - my daughter was allowed to drive from age 16. In the USA some states allow an even earlier start I believe - 14 in some of them.
On the continent the driving age limit can be higher - France I think is 18.
We expect 17 and 18 year old soldiers to be reponsible for their actions under battle conditions - but suggest they are children for statistical purposes when out as pedestrians.
How can the public be expected to absorb this spin without question?
Streetcop said:
Streetcop said:
depends on the circumstance;
seat belt law is 14 years, for example.
As for working; a work permit from the local council is now required.
Can you clarify this ?
Which part?
When you need a work permit from the local council ? Is this for all "child work" or what ? Just never heard of it.
autismuk,
I will get it confirmed...but for example; before a youth can work in a shop; the youth needs to aquire a work permit from the local council.
Child protection/youth services people can visit any shop where a young person is working and ask to see the permit. If the child/youth doesn't have a permit, the employer will commit an offence. (no action is taken against youth at this time).
I will get it confirmed...but for example; before a youth can work in a shop; the youth needs to aquire a work permit from the local council.
Child protection/youth services people can visit any shop where a young person is working and ask to see the permit. If the child/youth doesn't have a permit, the employer will commit an offence. (no action is taken against youth at this time).
Streetcop said:
autismuk,
I will get it confirmed...but for example; before a youth can work in a shop; the youth needs to aquire a work permit from the local council.
Child protection/youth services people can visit any shop where a young person is working and ask to see the permit. If the child/youth doesn't have a permit, the employer will commit an offence. (no action is taken against youth at this time).
Last year (according to the BiB Bash media studies group (aka Familie WildCat)
- Dorset police (the bizarre case of the scoffed processed cheese sandwich and the other strnage case of the 6 year old mit the water pistol) prosecuted a 15 year old's Mama und a newsagent. Apparently - his crime was to ... start his paper round 15 minutes early so that he was not late for school. 
Und in this week's paper .... we had the stern letter home to a 15 year old's Mama. She received a letter from Cambs police about her son's behaviour. Mit growing alarm - thinking her lovely son had robbed a bank or something - she read the letter.
They did not get to the point until the third paragraph - where she learned that her son's crime was ....
......to be caught smoking a cigarette!
; Whilst I do not approve of smoking (being a boring non-smoker) - what child (including self) has not tried an illicit puff to find out what all the fuss ist about?
Und what ist point of CSO reporting such an incident und going to expense of using up police form filling time on this sort of nonsense?
There are lots of different rules which apply:
Scottish law sasy a child is capable of mens rea at 8 years old und England und Wales will prosecute at 10 years old.
There are laws about seat belts being driver responsibility up to age 14.
Person can marry at 16 years old und drive at 17 years old, purchase Lotto ticket at 16, leave school at 16...
At 18 - they are adult - whether or not they are still at school taking A levels - und can vote, marry without parental permission.
At 11 upwards one should expect a child who has grown up with motor cars und roads to know that cars travel faster than they can walk - und to know that you do not walk out in front of them. They do study Phsyics und velocity ist still on syllabus - -
WildCat said:
Whilst I do not approve of smoking (being a boring non-smoker) - what child (including self) has not tried an illicit puff to find out what all the fuss ist about?
The problem was that the gobby little shite would not hand over the cigarettes when he was required to surrender them.
I think you will find that the PCSO was in that area at the request of local people to curtail 'yobbish' behaviour!
Now let me see. Could this little cherrub be part of the problem I wonder?
I was not there so I cannot pass judgement over what exactly happened BUT, having been to this sort of incident on many occasions where there are a plethora of adolescent rebels with raging testosterone, I can well imagine why the letter was sent to the doting parent of this angelic child!
She even criticised the local police for failing to get to grips with the problem of unruly youths in the area!!!
Wildcat said:
Und what ist point of CSO reporting such an incident und going to expense of using up police form filling time on this sort of nonsense?
ERRRRRRRR? You seem to have lost sight of the important fact that this is what his job is
!! Filling in forms to deal with disorderly conduct within the community which is employing him to do just that!
Wildcat said:
There are lots of different rules which apply:
Hmmmmm 
Wildcat said:
Scottish law sasy a child is capable of mens rea at 8 years old und England und Wales will prosecute at 10 years old.
There are laws about seat belts being driver responsibility up to age 14.
Person can marry at 16 years old und drive at 17 years old, purchase Lotto ticket at 16, leave school at 16...
At 18 - they are adult - whether or not they are still at school taking A levels - und can vote, marry without parental permission.
At 11 upwards one should expect a child who has grown up with motor cars und roads to know that cars travel faster than they can walk - und to know that you do not walk out in front of them. They do study Phsyics und velocity ist still on syllabus - -
How on earth has the age of 11, crossing the road and understanding physics got anything to do with the law and its statutory limits about specific rules and age groups?
gone said:
Whilst I do not approve of smoking (being a boring non-smoker) - what child (including self) has not tried an illicit puff to find out what all the fuss ist about?
The problem was that the gobby little shite would not hand over the cigarettes when he was required to surrender them.
I think you will find that the PCSO was in that area at the request of local people to curtail 'yobbish' behaviour!
Und teachers have this every day in he week .... but in any case - there are worse criminals that 15 year olds smoking. Of course - he'd have been a lippy little tyke under the circumstances.
#But was he being unruly? Perhaps und perhaps the cheek emanated form being asked to surrender his fags.
I have also had the cheek from my own 15 year old over an illicit ciggy. We have explained the dangers und his Papa made him research und write him an essay on the subject last year;
As far as we know - he has not smoked since - und I sniff his clothing to check when I load washing machine. But smoking ist matter mit parent und child - same as if I discovered the twins were sexually active - it would be up to us to explain facts of life und remind that they are not old enough yet - und that they are breaking the law by behaving so before age 16. As far as I am aware ... they are still "little innocents" that way - und have petrolheaded instincts
gone said:
She even criticised the local police for failing to get to grips with the problem of unruly youths in the area!!!
Perhaps the youths were more unruly than her ciggy smoking son, Liebchen.
gone said:
Und what ist point of CSO reporting such an incident und going to expense of using up police form filling time on this sort of nonsense?
ERRRRRRRR? You seem to have lost sight of the important fact that this is what his job is
Filling in forms to deal with disorderly conduct within the community which is employing him to do just that!
But he should have been targetting Johnny Violent Thug. Ist a 15 year old smiking an illegal ciggy rellay being a bublic nuisance? His letter (as reported in paper) only mentioned the cigarette - und no other cheek or nuisance.
gone said:
How on earth has the age of 11, crossing the road and understanding physics got anything to do with the law and its statutory limits about specific rules and age groups?
I am mentioning what ist reasonably expected by child of this age in its development. They have grown up mit cars ... und we keep hearing from Brake that these children cannot be expected to understand the methodology of crossing a road.
Of coure they are old enough to understand!
WildCat said:
- und I sniff his clothing to check when I load washing machine.
Sniffing clothing can get you into trouble
! Especially if she is still in them
Wildcat said:
But smoking ist matter mit parent und child....
So now she knows because the Police sent her a letter to tell her that he is smoking! She can deal with that how she wants to but instead, she chose to complain that the Police are failing to come up to her obviously very high expectations
Wildcat said:
- same as if I discovered the twins were sexually active
A PCSO catching your twins being sexually active in a public place and whilst underage? Would you like to know about this?
Wildcat said:
- it would be up to us to explain facts of life und remind that they are not old enough yet - und that they are breaking the law by behaving so before age 16. As far as I am aware ... they are still "little innocents" that way - und have petrolheaded instincts
Oh! I forgot. It is not the business of Police to inform minors that they are breaking the law and then to inform the parents that they have been caught! Maybe the PCSO should forget about the legal side and just save you the bother of the chat about the birds and the bees
! Wildcat said:
Perhaps the youths were more unruly than her ciggy smoking son, Liebchen.
Perhaps they were! Perhaps her son is not a youth. Perhaps he was not there at all? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps........
Wildcat said:
Und what ist point of CSO reporting such an incident und going to expense of using up police form filling time on this sort of nonsense?
CAUSE ITS HIS JOB!!!!! Wildcat said:
But he should have been targetting Johnny Violent Thug. Ist a 15 year old smiking an illegal ciggy rellay being a bublic nuisance? His letter (as reported in paper) only mentioned the cigarette - und no other cheek or nuisance.
Maybe the PCSO got there before they started on the violent stuff? Maybe the PCSO had previously come across this chap and on this occasion was able to do something about it because he was caught?
Maybe maybe maybe. We cannot say because we were not there
Maybe the whole thing is totally beyond your comprehension
. Maybe the constant working with mad doctors and dangerous chemicals is beginning to infiltrate your understanding of reality beyond the edited lines of a gutter wrag? It is certainly having an effect on your grammer gone said:
How on earth has the age of 11, crossing the road and understanding physics got anything to do with the law and its statutory limits about specific rules and age groups?
I am mentioning what ist reasonably expected by child of this age in its development. They have grown up mit cars ... und we keep hearing from Brake that these children cannot be expected to understand the methodology of crossing a road.
Of coure they are old enough to understand![/quote]
Oh!
lieber gone said:
WildCat said:
- und I sniff his clothing to check when I load washing machine.
Sniffing clothing can get you into trouble
Especially if she is still in them
lieber gone said:
But smoking ist matter mit parent und child....
So now she knows because the Police sent her a letter to tell her that he is smoking! She can deal with that how she wants to but instead, she chose to complain that the Police are failing to come up to her obviously very high expectations
I knew the minute my second Tom kitten had been behind the bikes sheds. I should be in the perfume industry over my "Nose"
But still think it was heavy handed -as there must have been more serious goings-on.
lieber gone said:
- same as if I discovered the twins were sexually active
A PCSO catching your twins being sexually active in a public place and whilst underage? Would you like to know about this?
I would hope they would have more common sense.
lieber gone said:
Wildcat said:
- it would be up to us to explain facts of life und remind that they are not old enough yet - und that they are breaking the law by behaving so before age 16. As far as I am aware ... they are still "little innocents" that way - und have petrolheaded instincts
Oh! I forgot. It is not the business of Police to inform minors that they are breaking the law and then to inform the parents that they have been caught! Maybe the PCSO should forget about the legal side and just save you the bother of the chat about the birds and the bees
But there are laws und there are laws - und the havay hand mit the ciggy may just have the negative effect - like the prefect at school
Un nein - was not a prefect as was too "rebellious" 
I rather think our two would be teaching them or thing or two....even thouht ehy are little "innocents" - am astounded at what they can tell me ]/i]
lieber gone said:
Perhaps the youths were more unruly than her ciggy smoking son, Liebchen.
Perhaps they were! Perhaps her son is not a youth. Perhaps he was not there at all? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps........
At 15- ist still her baby. Und she ist worried about stain on character over smoking.
Not to mention the stain on his teeth, the breath like the old sweaty socks, und scar tissues in throat und lungs .... und hardening of arteries und smokers' coughs...
lieber gone said:
Und what ist point of CSO reporting such an incident und going to expense of using up police form filling time on this sort of nonsense?
Aber doch Liebchen:
He could have found a real criminal... liebergone said:
But he should have been targetting Johnny Violent Thug. Ist a 15 year old smiking an illegal ciggy rellay being a bublic nuisance? His letter (as reported in paper) only mentioned the cigarette - und no other cheek or nuisance.
Maybe the PCSO got there before they started on the violent stuff? Maybe the PCSO had previously come across this chap and on this occasion was able to do something about it because he was caught?
Maybe maybe maybe. We cannot say because we were not there
Maybe the whole thing is totally beyond your comprehension
I never could spell
Und in any case - mad und wild scientists ... we save the world really. 
gone said:
How on earth has the age of 11, crossing the road and understanding physics got anything to do with the law and its statutory limits about specific rules and age groups?
I am mentioning what ist reasonably expected by child of this age in its development. They have grown up mit cars ... und we keep hearing from Brake that these children cannot be expected to understand the methodology of crossing a road.
Of coure they are old enough to understand![/quote]
Oh!
[/quote] >> Edited by WildCat on Monday 14th February 18:33
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