Courts not fit for purpose.
Discussion
So what is the point of the driving licence points system http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35251331 when the courts, magistrates etc treat it with what seems like distain ?
Anyone in here going to fess up to keeping their licence with 'extra' points ?
Luckily at the moment I'm still on 0 points.
Anyone in here going to fess up to keeping their licence with 'extra' points ?
Luckily at the moment I'm still on 0 points.
speedyguy said:
So what is the point of the driving licence points system http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35251331 when the courts, magistrates etc treat it with what seems like distain ?
Anyone in here going to fess up to keeping their licence with 'extra' points ?
Luckily at the moment I'm still on 0 points.
Whenever there's any detail about those cases, rather than just "ooh-shock-headline-figure", it always turns out that there's been ONE court appearance in which they've been given a mahoosive stack of points for a thick wodge of offences. So they've had one - and one only - exceptional hardship plea. And they won't get another go.Anyone in here going to fess up to keeping their licence with 'extra' points ?
Luckily at the moment I'm still on 0 points.
Drumroll said:
I would suggest for most people losing there licence will cause hardship.
"Exceptional hardship" isn't for the person in court, it's for others who also rely on their being able to drive.Drumroll said:
The other question is how do they get insurance?
Expensively. Very expensively.TooMany2cvs said:
Whenever there's any detail about those cases, rather than just "ooh-shock-headline-figure", it always turns out that there's been ONE court appearance in which they've been given a mahoosive stack of points for a thick wodge of offences. So they've had one - and one only - exceptional hardship plea. And they won't get another go.
The article says "accumulated for speeding" so presumably not just the one offence." Around 100,000 driver have been disqualified over the past four years for reaching 12 points "
" Figures show 13 people in England currently have 28 or more points on their driving licence with one having 51 points "
I think it's fair to say that most of us who drive have the thought of points, especially 12 points and a ban, always there at the back of the mind.
The 100,000 who have been banned over the last four years have got to be asking what makes the 13 people with 28 points or more and still driving so special ?!
" Figures show 13 people in England currently have 28 or more points on their driving licence with one having 51 points "
I think it's fair to say that most of us who drive have the thought of points, especially 12 points and a ban, always there at the back of the mind.
The 100,000 who have been banned over the last four years have got to be asking what makes the 13 people with 28 points or more and still driving so special ?!
over_the_hill said:
The article says "accumulated for speeding" so presumably not just the one offence.
According to the Mirror ;" The driver racked up three speeding offences in a 30mph zone and seven offences of not providing driver details "
That's a ban pure and simple.
Must have been one court appearance with a big hardship plea and second chance given.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-wors...
The 'four strikes and out' was a policy brought in under much different circumstances. Bans were unusual in the 'old days', at least for totting up. But, as I read, there are 100,000 drivers suffering a ban.
With the proliferation in cameras, the de facto dropping of the limit for prosecution and the much higher mileages being driven, it is time to look at it again.
A friend of mine ran a small company selling sports gear, particularly to non-sporting people. He employed 8 people plus a salesman. The latter's mileage escapes me, but it was 60-80k pa, that sort of range, motorway work in the main. He was banned for totting up of speeding points, the majority, if not all, about 5mph over. One was when he thought it was a 50mph limit, but the n/s 40 sign was hidden by a lorry and the offside by greenery. His appeal was refused.
He didn't lose his job as such as contacts are the most important aspect of his work, but there were two people laid off in the company due to the drop in workload. It took years for the company to get back to its old level as my friend felt he had to ensure that such a thing did not put his company at risk again.
These are just regulations. There is no inherent danger in exceeding the limit. He drove circa 70,000 pa with no accidents, no charges of dangerous/careless driver, so getting on for 300,000 miles in the 4 years he worked for my friend. So not a danger on the roads.
With the proliferation in cameras, the de facto dropping of the limit for prosecution and the much higher mileages being driven, it is time to look at it again.
A friend of mine ran a small company selling sports gear, particularly to non-sporting people. He employed 8 people plus a salesman. The latter's mileage escapes me, but it was 60-80k pa, that sort of range, motorway work in the main. He was banned for totting up of speeding points, the majority, if not all, about 5mph over. One was when he thought it was a 50mph limit, but the n/s 40 sign was hidden by a lorry and the offside by greenery. His appeal was refused.
He didn't lose his job as such as contacts are the most important aspect of his work, but there were two people laid off in the company due to the drop in workload. It took years for the company to get back to its old level as my friend felt he had to ensure that such a thing did not put his company at risk again.
These are just regulations. There is no inherent danger in exceeding the limit. He drove circa 70,000 pa with no accidents, no charges of dangerous/careless driver, so getting on for 300,000 miles in the 4 years he worked for my friend. So not a danger on the roads.
over_the_hill said:
TooMany2cvs said:
it always turns out that there's been ONE court appearance in which they've been given a mahoosive stack of points for a thick wodge of offences. So they've had one - and one only - exceptional hardship plea.
The article says "accumulated for speeding" so presumably not just the one offence.TooMany2cvs said:
Whenever there's any detail about those cases, rather than just "ooh-shock-headline-figure", it always turns out that there's been ONE court appearance in which they've been given a mahoosive stack of points for a thick wodge of offences. So they've had one - and one only - exceptional hardship plea. And they won't get another go.
Mitigating circumstances can be argued on more than one occasion, but you're correct to the extent that the same circumstances accepted by the court can't be argued again within 3 years.Example
Occasion 1. I need to drive for work purposes, have a family to support, etc, etc.
Occasion 2. I have a disability, etc, etc.
I cant possibly see how a provisional license holder can have mitigating circumstances to keep the license. A provisional driver has to be supurvised so if he/she was banned, there is still a person who could drive them if needed be, so the old, loose a job excuse doesnt cut it.
Plus if a provisional driver is committing so many offences, surely the supervising license holder should be up in court with them on "permitting" based offences too?
Plus if a provisional driver is committing so many offences, surely the supervising license holder should be up in court with them on "permitting" based offences too?
Other halfs late grandad was a jp. He once told me of a chap he let off twice for totting up and ended up with 17 points. He was disabled and had a specially modified scooter 3 wheeled he could drive he wheel chair onto. He racked up his for minor breaches of 30s and not stopping at red lights. He was a bit crazy! His rational was the full tine carer he would need if he lost his licence.
I know someone who did totting up twice and used two exceptional hardships reasons to get away without totting up ban. They only ever drove on 11 points though.
I know someone who did totting up twice and used two exceptional hardships reasons to get away without totting up ban. They only ever drove on 11 points though.
Psycho Warren said:
I cant possibly see how a provisional license holder can have mitigating circumstances to keep the license
Me neither, but they obviously put some kind of amazing case forward.Some one I know received 6 points and a £1200 fine for failing to identify the driver ( long story but that was the outcome after almost a year ), by the time those 6 were added he had gained another 3 points on for an SP30. Not a nice few years driving to follow with the constant awareness that an SP30 puts him up for a ban.
Agree with Derek Smith - it's high time the whole thing was reviewed. Maybe 15 points for a ban.
Just for the record - no I don't have any points myself !
agtlaw said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Whenever there's any detail about those cases, rather than just "ooh-shock-headline-figure", it always turns out that there's been ONE court appearance in which they've been given a mahoosive stack of points for a thick wodge of offences. So they've had one - and one only - exceptional hardship plea. And they won't get another go.
Mitigating circumstances can be argued on more than one occasion, but you're correct to the extent that the same circumstances accepted by the court can't be argued again within 3 years.Example
Occasion 1. I need to drive for work purposes, have a family to support, etc, etc.
Occasion 2. I have a disability, etc, etc.
After that he bought a slower car
It's like every other "Headline" case and not explainable unless you sit on al of the cases mentioned.
As Agtlaw has eluded exceptional hardship cases can be extremely convoluted and mainly (not always) involve innocent parties being severely adversely affected by the defendants loss of driving licence. There are many ways in which a large accumulation of points results in only one appearance in court, overlapping offence dates and delays in the system etc.
These cases are very unusual and I have never seen anything like that number of points whilst sitting on a lot of EH cases, its not something that is easy to do as it involves far more opinion based decisions rather than fact based. I'm sure all the lawyers on here will agree that a good advocate makes a big difference when making the case for EH as they are well used to what triggers are needed to take you down the path of granting the exception.
my guesstimate is that about 40% of those who appear get their stay of execution but as pointed out it is not to be repeated and after the warnings usually sees a modified approach to driving with the experience behind them.
But I may be getting soft in my old (er) age!
As Agtlaw has eluded exceptional hardship cases can be extremely convoluted and mainly (not always) involve innocent parties being severely adversely affected by the defendants loss of driving licence. There are many ways in which a large accumulation of points results in only one appearance in court, overlapping offence dates and delays in the system etc.
These cases are very unusual and I have never seen anything like that number of points whilst sitting on a lot of EH cases, its not something that is easy to do as it involves far more opinion based decisions rather than fact based. I'm sure all the lawyers on here will agree that a good advocate makes a big difference when making the case for EH as they are well used to what triggers are needed to take you down the path of granting the exception.
my guesstimate is that about 40% of those who appear get their stay of execution but as pointed out it is not to be repeated and after the warnings usually sees a modified approach to driving with the experience behind them.
But I may be getting soft in my old (er) age!
Derek Smith said:
These are just regulations. There is no inherent danger in exceeding the limit. He drove circa 70,000 pa with no accidents, no charges of dangerous/careless driver, so getting on for 300,000 miles in the 4 years he worked for my friend. So not a danger on the roads.
I disagree with those doing lots of road miles getting off.
Surely if your job depended on you driving, then as a professional driver you should take more care and thus if you get multiple speeding tickets then clearly that shows you arent taking proper care.
I can sympathise in some borderline cases eg 15 points etc but not the ones where they have s
t loads of points. In those cases you did the crime, you take the punishment and if you loose your job and home because of it, then thats your own stupid fking fault and you learn a lesson in life.
Surely if your job depended on you driving, then as a professional driver you should take more care and thus if you get multiple speeding tickets then clearly that shows you arent taking proper care.
I can sympathise in some borderline cases eg 15 points etc but not the ones where they have s
t loads of points. In those cases you did the crime, you take the punishment and if you loose your job and home because of it, then thats your own stupid fking fault and you learn a lesson in life.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff