Security cameras at home and Town/Village community CCTV
Discussion
I was talking to a neighbour down the pub, let me try to keep this short and sweet:
Is there any legislation or local govt policy which I have to adhere to if I put a security camera on the front of my house? I've only got a few metres of garden, so by recording the front door and/or the car, I'm going to be recording other cars and people on the pavement.
Can I install an IP Cam at my house, and my neighbours install them at their houses, can we then centrally store the recordings (locally or in the cloud) on everyone's behalf for review in the event that any of us are a victim of crime?
How far can you take this - can a Parish council fund and install a non closed circuit non district council system - ie. several IP Cams, wireless or not, using residential/business broadband as connectivity, so that in the event of rising crime in the village, there is footage to review? Do signs need to be put in public that streets and are being recorded?
Are there hoops to jump through if you go from 1 guy 2 cams to 5 guys 10 cams shared costs?
Where are the lines drawn?
I suspect cameras would go missing very quickly if criminal types realised they were about, and the antagonism might increase crime rather than reduce it. Best to keep it sensible and low key.
I have cameras all over the property, but you wouldn't know it from a scan of the buildings, inside or out. Had someone staring through the gates a while ago middle of the night, and was able to use the knowledge to creep up from another direction and step out in front of him to appear inside the gates with the woodcutting axe, he jumped so high he almost cleared the gates, and ran off, never to return. Absolutely priceless.
I have cameras all over the property, but you wouldn't know it from a scan of the buildings, inside or out. Had someone staring through the gates a while ago middle of the night, and was able to use the knowledge to creep up from another direction and step out in front of him to appear inside the gates with the woodcutting axe, he jumped so high he almost cleared the gates, and ran off, never to return. Absolutely priceless.
I believe from a chat with local PCSO( who often talk out of the end covered by trousers, Police Uniform ,female PCSO for the use of), that you are allowed to cover your property ( and if car is parked on road outside house is that also allowed?) .
But from this chat, it's a minefield. Reason for chat, is that we have one feral neighbour who can't be assed to take his kids to local park, where there's games equipment local community fought for. He thinks it's OK for his kids to batter a football over a large area, and run riot into gardens to retrieve it. of course, cars are great for bouncing balls off of, and bonus points are given if the ball lands smack in the centre of a car roof. I had a quiet word with this bloke to be told to "go forth" ,and the situation got worse. Further word, with threat to set up CCTV and hand it to council was rewarded by more ball games, with one striking Front window with force. We again asked kids to desist. Next day, neighbour walked in front of our car as we went out. Wife picked up camera, to record this for evidence of actions and audio . He walked away. Next day we had a visit from PCSO regarding taking photos of children. So get advice before setting up CCTV on your property. The law is biased in favour of the predators, not the victims.
But from this chat, it's a minefield. Reason for chat, is that we have one feral neighbour who can't be assed to take his kids to local park, where there's games equipment local community fought for. He thinks it's OK for his kids to batter a football over a large area, and run riot into gardens to retrieve it. of course, cars are great for bouncing balls off of, and bonus points are given if the ball lands smack in the centre of a car roof. I had a quiet word with this bloke to be told to "go forth" ,and the situation got worse. Further word, with threat to set up CCTV and hand it to council was rewarded by more ball games, with one striking Front window with force. We again asked kids to desist. Next day, neighbour walked in front of our car as we went out. Wife picked up camera, to record this for evidence of actions and audio . He walked away. Next day we had a visit from PCSO regarding taking photos of children. So get advice before setting up CCTV on your property. The law is biased in favour of the predators, not the victims.
I'm not sure why you'd threaten to set up CCTV, as if a misbehaving child or undesirable parent is suddenly going to have an epiphany and show remorse and never do it again.
As above, if you catch the kids on your property you should if possible just keep the ball or burst it. If your car is that important then just set up the CCTV and go from there. Take as many photos as you like by the way (but that's a different story).
Threats invariably don't work unless you can conceivably carry them out or the other party would genuinely be concerned. In this case, it's neither, so just do it or find an alternative action that puts the kids (and their parents) at a disadvantage.
As above, if you catch the kids on your property you should if possible just keep the ball or burst it. If your car is that important then just set up the CCTV and go from there. Take as many photos as you like by the way (but that's a different story).
Threats invariably don't work unless you can conceivably carry them out or the other party would genuinely be concerned. In this case, it's neither, so just do it or find an alternative action that puts the kids (and their parents) at a disadvantage.
If you operate a CCTV system as a private individual you can do what you like provided it doesn't film beyond the boundaries of your property.
If it does record people outside your property then you have to register with the ICO as a data controller and abide by the provisions of the Data Protection Act in relation to any images captured - including providing anyone who's image you've captured a copy of any footage of themselves subject to a few exemptions. On the plus side, you can charge them up to a tenner for the copy.
If you operate one as a business you have to register even if it only covers your own property.
If it does record people outside your property then you have to register with the ICO as a data controller and abide by the provisions of the Data Protection Act in relation to any images captured - including providing anyone who's image you've captured a copy of any footage of themselves subject to a few exemptions. On the plus side, you can charge them up to a tenner for the copy.
If you operate one as a business you have to register even if it only covers your own property.
Variomatic said:
If you operate a CCTV system as a private individual you can do what you like provided it doesn't film beyond the boundaries of your property.
Okay - so by the strict letter of the law, if you park on the street like many people do - and you point your cam across the pavement and onto the highway - you are probably in breach of this and you /should/ register.Would a reasonable Policeman ever be likely to pick it up as an issue?
beeej said:
Okay - so by the strict letter of the law, if you park on the street like many people do - and you point your cam across the pavement and onto the highway - you are probably in breach of this and you /should/ register.
Would a reasonable Policeman ever be likely to pick it up as an issue?
Very unlikely that a policeman would be upset by it, but the scrote you film slashing tyres may well have a sharp enough lawyer to cause problems either using the images or for you personally - "I was sued for filming a vandal" is an entirely possible Daily Maily headline!Would a reasonable Policeman ever be likely to pick it up as an issue?
Jefferson Steelflex said:
I'm not sure why you'd threaten to set up CCTV, as if a misbehaving child or undesirable parent is suddenly going to have an epiphany and show remorse and never do it again.
As above, if you catch the kids on your property you should if possible just keep the ball or burst it. If your car is that important then just set up the CCTV and go from there. Take as many photos as you like by the way (but that's a different story).
Threats invariably don't work unless you can conceivably carry them out or the other party would genuinely be concerned. In this case, it's neither, so just do it or find an alternative action that puts the kids (and their parents) at a disadvantage.
First- this sort work on the principle that if there's no witnesses,it's your word against theirs. Add in the possibility of CCTV, and they get worried that, possibly there's evidence they can't dispute. Someone said "PUT CAR IN GARAGE AND BURST BALL". First, I've no garage, only my front garden, and as to bursting ball- that is dropping to their level. As above, if you catch the kids on your property you should if possible just keep the ball or burst it. If your car is that important then just set up the CCTV and go from there. Take as many photos as you like by the way (but that's a different story).
Threats invariably don't work unless you can conceivably carry them out or the other party would genuinely be concerned. In this case, it's neither, so just do it or find an alternative action that puts the kids (and their parents) at a disadvantage.
But suddenly "misbehaving child or undesirable parent is suddenly going to have an epiphany and show remorse and never do it again"- after we had a complaint about CCTV, and a "chat" with PCSO, problems have moved elsewhere. Parent has had his poker bluffs called and he's now very worried about the thing he threatened me with- his van sales from home business, a figment of his imagination.
Until recently it was perfectly OK to film public areas with a domestic CCTV system. You didn't have to register anything. Europe got involved and private individuals found themselves caught up in red tape which the UK authorities weren't really that bothered about introducing to the point where if you asked them how to register they scratched their heads and said we'll let you know.
For the most part domestic CCTV is pretty useless with most people fitting kits from the big retailers which promise the moon on a stick but use fixed lens wide angle cameras so no detail is ever captured. You are just a tiny spec in the middle of the screen. With a bit of planning though and the right equipment domestic CCTV systems can be effective, this CCTV Guide is a good starting point.
When the right stuff is used domestic CCTV is extremely effective. We have a local community group who work together. People have systems which include monitoring roads and pavements outside their houses. If an incident takes place they all look through their systems to see if they have any footage which might help. Whilst Mrs Jones was done over at 10 Acacia Avenue it was Mr Frost from 5 Roman Gardens round the corner who captured the vehicle used and from there an arrest is made.
This scheme has netted over 100 arrests and convictions, the best of which was 3 life sentences as a direct result of one of our systems on the scheme. The Police took a bit of time to come onboard assuming all the footage would be useless but they now approach the scheme directly for assistance. The type of crimes is astounding as is the geographical web as criminals travel to work.
At the moment if you film public space with your domestic CCTV system you are supposed to register with the ICO or Information Commissioners Office. You can do it online Here and there is a charge of £35 per year.
It's worth mentioning that domestic CCTV systems registering with the ICO are not required to register their address so you can not search the database by address for them.
There is a campaign to remove the need for registration of domestic CCTV systems and you can sign an online petition Here. CCTV empowers private citizens to fight crime without putting themselves in danger. It is a credible tool for community action against criminal activity and the results we have seen proves it works. The trick is to get groups of people working together rather than as individuals only interested in looking after themselves. Having the need to register systems will potentially put people off using CCTV as effectively as it could be.
It's worth pointing out that there are millions of people with CCTV in the UK and only a tiny percentage will ever register them. For many ignorance is bliss for others they take the view that the likelihood of being prosecuted is tiny.
I hope that is of some use.
Henry
For the most part domestic CCTV is pretty useless with most people fitting kits from the big retailers which promise the moon on a stick but use fixed lens wide angle cameras so no detail is ever captured. You are just a tiny spec in the middle of the screen. With a bit of planning though and the right equipment domestic CCTV systems can be effective, this CCTV Guide is a good starting point.
When the right stuff is used domestic CCTV is extremely effective. We have a local community group who work together. People have systems which include monitoring roads and pavements outside their houses. If an incident takes place they all look through their systems to see if they have any footage which might help. Whilst Mrs Jones was done over at 10 Acacia Avenue it was Mr Frost from 5 Roman Gardens round the corner who captured the vehicle used and from there an arrest is made.
This scheme has netted over 100 arrests and convictions, the best of which was 3 life sentences as a direct result of one of our systems on the scheme. The Police took a bit of time to come onboard assuming all the footage would be useless but they now approach the scheme directly for assistance. The type of crimes is astounding as is the geographical web as criminals travel to work.
At the moment if you film public space with your domestic CCTV system you are supposed to register with the ICO or Information Commissioners Office. You can do it online Here and there is a charge of £35 per year.
It's worth mentioning that domestic CCTV systems registering with the ICO are not required to register their address so you can not search the database by address for them.
There is a campaign to remove the need for registration of domestic CCTV systems and you can sign an online petition Here. CCTV empowers private citizens to fight crime without putting themselves in danger. It is a credible tool for community action against criminal activity and the results we have seen proves it works. The trick is to get groups of people working together rather than as individuals only interested in looking after themselves. Having the need to register systems will potentially put people off using CCTV as effectively as it could be.
It's worth pointing out that there are millions of people with CCTV in the UK and only a tiny percentage will ever register them. For many ignorance is bliss for others they take the view that the likelihood of being prosecuted is tiny.
I hope that is of some use.
Henry
Oh Henry you've gone and got new HD stuff, I'll be in touch!
I had problems with scum bags and got cctv a few years ago, within 24 hours the police were at the door as I was "filming children" and a "peodophile" funny how the scum react when they can't just say it wasn't them, cctv does work but from experience the average bobby has no idea of cctv law and will quote all sorts of incorrect stuff, but there is plenty of genuine advice online and especially from Henry above.
I had problems with scum bags and got cctv a few years ago, within 24 hours the police were at the door as I was "filming children" and a "peodophile" funny how the scum react when they can't just say it wasn't them, cctv does work but from experience the average bobby has no idea of cctv law and will quote all sorts of incorrect stuff, but there is plenty of genuine advice online and especially from Henry above.
Useful info - we have a problem with having to park cars across the road due to yellow lines our side. Every so often someone will stagger home and kick in a door or jump on a bonnet or roof. A camera trained on the cars (one of ours, two belonging to next door) would be useful when contacting the police who so far haven't taken any action despite verbal descriptions.
If you want to film cars over the road make sure you use something with a long enough range. I mean genuine optical range rather than the "IR range" that everyone uses in their promotion. The numbers you see with regards range on cameras is pure fiction. Divide by 10 and you won't be far off the mark
You need something like these. Assuming HD1080P the first is effective up to 75 metres, the second about 25 metres
75 metre camera
25 metre camera
All the fixed lens wide angle cameras you see advertised have an effective range of about 5-6 metres.
Providing you can zoom in sufficiently to capture genuine detail the police will be able to use it in the event of an incident.
Edited to add: you can film about 8 metres wide with HD1080P and identify someone. Any wider and there won't be enough detail.
Henry
You need something like these. Assuming HD1080P the first is effective up to 75 metres, the second about 25 metres
75 metre camera
25 metre camera
All the fixed lens wide angle cameras you see advertised have an effective range of about 5-6 metres.
Providing you can zoom in sufficiently to capture genuine detail the police will be able to use it in the event of an incident.
Edited to add: you can film about 8 metres wide with HD1080P and identify someone. Any wider and there won't be enough detail.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 3rd March 19:47
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