Speeding in Variable Speed limit area M25
Discussion
I have just received a letter from Essex Police re a speeding offence on a section of variable speed limit on the M25. The offence is noted as 'Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device', and the location/time etc is noted, but it gives me no indication either of the speed I was travelling at, nor the limit in force at the time.
I have three options to pick from: awareness course, fixed penalty, or court appearance. Now I'm not crying about the offence per se, but it seems a little unreasonable to want me to admit guilt without at least some passing detail on what it is I am alleged to have done?
The letter makes quite clear that Essex Police are not required to provide evidence, but surely some specifics of the offence might be in order to allow me to decide whether I am guilty or not? Obviously the fact that the letter is generated in the first place 'probably' means that I am guilty, but its not impossible that it is effectively a fishing expedition sent out to large numbers of vehilces travelling on the motorway at that time. Do the Police really not have to provide ANY details of the alleged offence?
I have three options to pick from: awareness course, fixed penalty, or court appearance. Now I'm not crying about the offence per se, but it seems a little unreasonable to want me to admit guilt without at least some passing detail on what it is I am alleged to have done?
The letter makes quite clear that Essex Police are not required to provide evidence, but surely some specifics of the offence might be in order to allow me to decide whether I am guilty or not? Obviously the fact that the letter is generated in the first place 'probably' means that I am guilty, but its not impossible that it is effectively a fishing expedition sent out to large numbers of vehilces travelling on the motorway at that time. Do the Police really not have to provide ANY details of the alleged offence?
bltamil1 said:
I have three options to pick from: awareness course, fixed penalty, or court appearance. Now I'm not crying about the offence per se, but it seems a little unreasonable to want me to admit guilt without at least some passing detail on what it is I am alleged to have done?
So opt for the court appearance, and you'll be provided with the photographic evidence.speedking31 said:
The OP is not asking for photographic evidence, just details of the offence. There is a big difference between doing 80 in a 70 or 80 in a 40. He must know those details before deciding what action to take. Even accepting that he was driving might depend on the alleged speed.
Perhaps the fact that he's been offered a SAC shows that he's not been a REALLY naughty boy ?Sorry, I should have clarified that I have already done the S172 bit. When that first letter came I was a bit surprised to see that there were no further details, but I just expected that they would follow on the notice.
I suppose what seems strange to me is that I have no way of thinking back and deciding in my own mind whether I am guilty or not. The location and time put me in the right place, but with no idea of what the speed limit was at the time it leaves me a bit in the dark.
I accept, of course, that I am probably guilty and should probably sign up to the SAC. This is clearly what the process is designed to achieve, since a choice to appear at court carries the risk of a significantly greater punishment (I understand that a guilty verdict at court will shortly come with a circa £500 'charge' on top of any fine) and is therefore not particularly attractive.
It could be that there is a photo of me doing 70 in a 40 limit, or it could be 52 in a 50, I just don't know. As noted above, the offer of a course probably points towards the latter or some similar figure, but not knowing that makes anything other than accepting the course a bit of a roll of the dice doesn't it?
I suppose what seems strange to me is that I have no way of thinking back and deciding in my own mind whether I am guilty or not. The location and time put me in the right place, but with no idea of what the speed limit was at the time it leaves me a bit in the dark.
I accept, of course, that I am probably guilty and should probably sign up to the SAC. This is clearly what the process is designed to achieve, since a choice to appear at court carries the risk of a significantly greater punishment (I understand that a guilty verdict at court will shortly come with a circa £500 'charge' on top of any fine) and is therefore not particularly attractive.
It could be that there is a photo of me doing 70 in a 40 limit, or it could be 52 in a 50, I just don't know. As noted above, the offer of a course probably points towards the latter or some similar figure, but not knowing that makes anything other than accepting the course a bit of a roll of the dice doesn't it?
bltamil1 said:
It could be that there is a photo of me doing 70 in a 40 limit, or it could be 52 in a 50, I just don't know. As noted above, the offer of a course probably points towards the latter or some similar figure, but not knowing that makes anything other than accepting the course a bit of a roll of the dice doesn't it?
Well, no. You know what the FPN option would be if you don't go for the tea and biccies.So it's only the court case that'd be rolling a dice. And that's always the case, isn't it?
bltamil1 said:
I suppose what seems strange to me is that I have no way of thinking back and deciding in my own mind whether I am guilty or not.
They're not asking you to confirm guilt or otherwise at this time, merely who was driving a particular vehicle at a particular time and place.TooMany2cvs said:
Well, no. You know what the FPN option would be if you don't go for the tea and biccies.
So it's only the court case that'd be rolling a dice. And that's always the case, isn't it?
Perhaps rolling the dice was not the best analogy. In essence, the first two options (SAC/FPN) are both an admission of guilt of sorts, and come with fairly low level penalties. The third option (court appearance) still provides an opportunity to plead guilty (but with significantly higher costs attached).So it's only the court case that'd be rolling a dice. And that's always the case, isn't it?
I am obviously encouraged to 'plead guilty' in the first instance in exchange for a reduced penalty. Whilst I am in favour of the principle, it seems unfair to ask me to do this BEFORE the most significant part of the offence is revealed, much less any evidence provided.
To be clear, there is no dispute that I was there, driving the vehicle, at the time noted. As Monty Python has pointed out above, the fact that they have the vehicle details is pretty good evidence of that!
I suppose the simple question is, why don't they provide these details in the first letter?
I was similarly entrapped on the NE section repairs of the M25 I April 2017 and given only the choices stated above. As I live in the north west and it meant taking time off work, hotel and fuel costs to attend court I opted for the fine. However on reflection, the speed limits on the day were highly confusing being up and down at 40, 50, 60, 50, 60, 50 and so on, with some lanes having no speed limit sign on them at all. If I had lived in the area I would have gone to court and argued the case, on the basis that if the speed limit is not clearly displayed above the lane, how do you know the limit.
From a web search for the motorway post number at the time, it was evident that multitudes of drivers had been fined in a similar manner. Is this just tax collection or extortion; and what are the groups thoughts on me revisiting this and getting my money back and the offence deleted from my license.
From a web search for the motorway post number at the time, it was evident that multitudes of drivers had been fined in a similar manner. Is this just tax collection or extortion; and what are the groups thoughts on me revisiting this and getting my money back and the offence deleted from my license.
jadow said:
I was similarly entrapped on the NE section repairs of the M25 I April 2017 and given only the choices stated above. As I live in the north west and it meant taking time off work, hotel and fuel costs to attend court I opted for the fine. However on reflection, the speed limits on the day were highly confusing being up and down at 40, 50, 60, 50, 60, 50 and so on, with some lanes having no speed limit sign on them at all. If I had lived in the area I would have gone to court and argued the case, on the basis that if the speed limit is not clearly displayed above the lane, how do you know the limit.
From a web search for the motorway post number at the time, it was evident that multitudes of drivers had been fined in a similar manner. Is this just tax collection or extortion; and what are the groups thoughts on me revisiting this and getting my money back and the offence deleted from my license.
Hardly entrapment or extortion is it? You were going faster than the limit and got caught. Simples. If you opted for the fine as you say then you have admitted guilt, you can't to the best of my knowledge now say actually I didn't do it.From a web search for the motorway post number at the time, it was evident that multitudes of drivers had been fined in a similar manner. Is this just tax collection or extortion; and what are the groups thoughts on me revisiting this and getting my money back and the offence deleted from my license.
jadow said:
I was similarly entrapped on the NE section repairs of the M25 I April 2017 and given only the choices stated above. As I live in the north west and it meant taking time off work, hotel and fuel costs to attend court I opted for the fine. However on reflection, the speed limits on the day were highly confusing being up and down at 40, 50, 60, 50, 60, 50 and so on, with some lanes having no speed limit sign on them at all. If I had lived in the area I would have gone to court and argued the case, on the basis that if the speed limit is not clearly displayed above the lane, how do you know the limit.
From a web search for the motorway post number at the time, it was evident that multitudes of drivers had been fined in a similar manner. Is this just tax collection or extortion; and what are the groups thoughts on me revisiting this and getting my money back and the offence deleted from my license.
If you get confused about what big red circles with "40, 50, 60, 50, 60, 50 " in them means you really need to opt for education.From a web search for the motorway post number at the time, it was evident that multitudes of drivers had been fined in a similar manner. Is this just tax collection or extortion; and what are the groups thoughts on me revisiting this and getting my money back and the offence deleted from my license.
Also there is no need to have a sign above each lane to indicate the speed limit. A lot of new motorway signs have only one sign to the left; it applies to all lanes.
As others have said, once a FPN is accepted there is no way to reverse it. You need to make a challenge at the time, not after you have accepted the conditional offer of a fixed penalty.
If you are offered a course in most areas you will be given the option to do that local to you.
Better luck next time.
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